Chris Marks - Chief BBQ Expert of Three Little Pig Rubs and Sauce
The central theme of this podcast episode revolves around an insightful discourse with Chris Marks, a distinguished barbecue champion from Three Little Pigs Barbecue, who elucidates the critical distinction between being a knowledgeable pit master and a social media influencer in the realm of barbecue. We explore the nuances of authenticity in barbecue education, with Chris sharing his extensive experience that spans over two decades, during which he has won numerous accolades and taught countless classes. Our conversation delves into the evolving landscape of barbecue, scrutinizing the interplay between traditional techniques and contemporary social media trends, ultimately emphasizing the importance of substance over superficiality. Furthermore, we examine the implications of perception versus reality in the barbecue industry, particularly in relation to marketing and consumer expectations. Through this episode, we aspire to enlighten our listeners on the true essence of barbecue mastery and the value of genuine culinary education.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Three Little Pigs Barbecue
- Turner Burnett
- Heritage Steel
- Ace Hardware
- Lowe's
- Old World Spices
Mentioned in this episode:
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This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Transcript
It's time for Barbecue Nation with jt so fire up your grill, light the charcoal, and get your smoker cooking.
Speaker A:Now, from the Turner Burnett studios in Portland, here's jt.
Speaker B:Hey, everybody.
Speaker B:Welcome to Barbecue Nation.
Speaker B:I'm JT along with my co host and hall of Famer, Leanne Whippen, coming to you from our respective Turn It, Don't Burn it studios in Portland and Florida.
Speaker B:We'd like to thank you all for being with us today and allowing us to share our time with you.
Speaker B:We've got a great guest today, Chris Marks from Three Little Pigs Barbecue in the Kansas City area.
Speaker B:There, Chris has won more than 50 national barbecue championships, 600 individual awards, Jack Daniels World Championship Barbecue Sauce Championship, and at the Royal, like, eight different times.
Speaker B:My information may be dated, but Chris will straighten us out.
Speaker B:Chris, welcome.
Speaker A:Well, thank you so much.
Speaker C:Yes, welcome.
Speaker B:Well, let's.
Speaker B:Let's do this right at the top.
Speaker B:The reason I asked Chris on the show is I saw a social media post.
Speaker B:To some of us, it's the bane of our existence at times.
Speaker B:And he was, what, a real knowledgeable pit boss and barbecue champion versus an influencer.
Speaker B:And that really caught my eye.
Speaker B:In fact, I went back and read it, like, three times and was laughing the whole time.
Speaker C:He called me immediately.
Speaker A:I think, yeah, it went pretty viral, and I did get some kickback, so.
Speaker C:Well, that's good to have that.
Speaker B:That's okay, and that's fine with me.
Speaker B:But what.
Speaker B:Let's talk about that just for a minute.
Speaker B:What possessed you to post like that?
Speaker A:Well, I was actually doing a private class up in Chicago, not Chicago, Michigan, up in Detroit area, North Detroit.
Speaker A:And a very senior large company marketing guy basically says, you know, year ago we had a influencer came in here, and they had about 250,000 followers.
Speaker A:And they were a barbecue person, foodie person, and we had them present to all our people.
Speaker A:And he said it was so different watching me present because I'm more of an educator and a barbecue aficionado than somebody that's really pushing an agenda.
Speaker A:And that's pretty much the way he said, pushing an agenda.
Speaker A:They spent the first 10 minutes talking about who they knew, all their partners, where you need to go see their partners, what they represent, and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:And they maybe spent three or four minutes talking about what they were brought there to do, and that's pretty much give a class a presentation on barbecue.
Speaker A:So I'd done my class, and he says, you've obviously done this a few times.
Speaker A:And I said, I've been doing it for about 20 years and I'm pretty close to 600 barbecue classes now.
Speaker A:And so I pretty much represent barbecue fairly well.
Speaker A:And he goes, I want you to sit down with me.
Speaker A:And I want.
Speaker A:Basically he told me what the differences were.
Speaker A:He goes, I want to tell you what the difference between you, a social influencer and a real barbecue guy is.
Speaker A:And that's pretty much where it all started from.
Speaker A:And this guy is very senior with a very Fortune 500 company, very senior marketing guy.
Speaker A:And he says, you know, we laid it all out.
Speaker A:Took us about 20 minutes to lay it all out.
Speaker A:And lo and behold, that's where it pretty much came from.
Speaker A:And he says, you know, you got perception versus reality here.
Speaker A:And he was, he was basically trying to help me.
Speaker A:He was helping me market me as is what I got.
Speaker A:And so he talked about the perception versus reality.
Speaker A:And I said, well, you know, it's sort of the new trend is to be very social.
Speaker A:And I, and I go, you know, do I put social media out there?
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:But I'm not the guy who's running around to all the events and taking my pictures with everybody and running around doing selfies.
Speaker B:I'm not that guy.
Speaker A:You know, I'm an old fart.
Speaker A:I mean, I mean, just don't get around it.
Speaker B:I'm there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I've been doing this for 35 years.
Speaker A:And so I'm just not that guy, that high energy guy that I'm more the educator, I'm more, I'm more the guy who wants to show you how to do it, do it right.
Speaker A:And you don't need to post it all over everywhere and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:I'm just here to help.
Speaker C:So what, tell me this, what were his goals from having you versus him there?
Speaker C:And did he feel as if you checked all his boxes or was he more pleased with the other angle?
Speaker A:He loved my angle because that's again, what this presentation was supposed to be about.
Speaker A:It was supposed to be about barbecue.
Speaker A:And they basically found me over LinkedIn of all places.
Speaker A:And I mean, that's what his goal is.
Speaker A:His goal was barbecue, not promoting, not promoting a social agenda.
Speaker A:So again, it was quite interesting on how he basically made me break it down.
Speaker A:And he says, you have a defined differentiator here and you need to run with it.
Speaker A:And I said, well, I sort of do, but again, I'm just not that big social guy.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But what we have to do in our market, being a barbecue rub and sauce and all that, we sort of have to almost figure out a hybrid.
Speaker A:Whereas I do the classes and I grind out and I do classes.
Speaker A:I'm, I'm heading up next week back up to Michigan, up into the north part to do three more private classes up there.
Speaker A:But what we have to do is sort of figure out the hybrid method of mixing the social media influencer.
Speaker A:Are we influencers, Leanne?
Speaker A:Absolutely, we're influencers, but we're not that high energy selfie, run around, jump around and do all that kind of self influencer where we're not the trendy, where we're going to hop on a trend and it's not us.
Speaker A:I mean we're more the down to earth old school guys.
Speaker A:So that's pretty much what I figured out is I figured out a hybrid.
Speaker A:I do my social media and my social media is more to educate than it is to hype.
Speaker A:I'm not a trendy guy, but I'm more of an educator.
Speaker C:So how do you feel about those social media barbecue people that are out there hyping it?
Speaker A:Everybody, everybody has a place.
Speaker A:Not going to shoot you.
Speaker A:Wrong.
Speaker A:Everybody has their place.
Speaker A:Do they, do they help with barbecue?
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:But again, Leanne, like I said, it comes down to perception versus reality where, you know, that perception that they're this high end barbecue person is just not that.
Speaker A:But I mean, I'm sorry, the perception is they're high end barbecue, they've done all this stuff and nobody questions them.
Speaker A:And that's again, what the guy brought up to me up there in Michigan is that we thought this person was a high end barbecue person.
Speaker A:That was their perception of what they thought.
Speaker A:But the reality was is they were just an influencer.
Speaker B:So Chris, do you think the barbecue companies, I. E. The manufacturers and stuff and you're a manufacturer with your sauces and rubs, but I think you've clarified exactly your approach.
Speaker B:But I've run into this, I know Leanne runs into it.
Speaker B:And is it more that they just feel that the social media part is actually more important than the cook?
Speaker B:I mean, I know with Leanne it's the cook is the priority, but she also.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:That's with me too.
Speaker B:Yeah, she has to do the, you know, she has so much to do on the company she works for and that's fine.
Speaker B:But I also see like you guys, I have some followers and Facebook and especially and, and all of that, but I see a lot of posts where it's supposed to be a post, if that, if you follow what I'm saying.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:There's There's.
Speaker B:I'll do a terrible pun here, but there's no meat to it.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker B:It's just like, hey, I took pineapple juice and mixed it with avocado and I did this and it's wonderful.
Speaker B:And okay, maybe, who knows, but I might not eat it.
Speaker B:But you see where I'm getting at.
Speaker B:It's, it's just the, the posting to be putting something out there continually versus the quality of the content.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And that's again, post into post, and I see a lot of that too, is just I have to do a post every day and there's no, what we call meat to it.
Speaker A:It's just something to get click.
Speaker A:To get a click or something like that.
Speaker A:And that's again, I like content that has some backbone to it.
Speaker A:I'm working on something right now and I've been at for a couple years during classes, people have asked me about rubs and sauces.
Speaker A:How can I extend lives of rubs and sauces?
Speaker A:So I just put a little post up about that.
Speaker A:You know, how do you expend, you know, not sauces, but really rubs, you know, once I open your bottle, how can I extend my life cycle?
Speaker A:You know?
Speaker A:And yeah, they're simple to do, but a lot of people don't know how to do it.
Speaker A:And that's again, putting up, putting a little bit of meat into it.
Speaker A:Not just something to show my picture because my mom said I had a face for radio and she was right.
Speaker B:Why do you think I do what I do?
Speaker B:Leanne, what's your thought?
Speaker C:Well, this is the thing.
Speaker C:The influencers, they're trying to make a living out of this.
Speaker C:So it's very important that they get the followers, they get the companies, they get the revenue and anything to drive that they're going to do.
Speaker C:So you have to respect them from that point of view.
Speaker C:But at the same time, as Jeff, we always talk about the squeezing of the brisket juice out or whatever it is to make the biggest pork sandwich in the universe.
Speaker C:You know, they have to do this to keep their followers and get more followers.
Speaker C:So I kind of feel sorry for them that they have to really grasp at these things that to me are not real and they aren't being true authentic barbecue people in the methods.
Speaker C:And it's, it's, you know, it's all about the numbers.
Speaker C:But, you know, they have to do that because that's how they make their money or they get their products, whatever.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:So I don't know.
Speaker A:Well, no, you do know.
Speaker A:You Hit it right on the nose.
Speaker A:That's how they maintain that.
Speaker A:Now, you sent me this product, now I've got to do X amount of posts with X amount of content and it's got to look good and it's got to do all this kind of fun stuff.
Speaker A:But think about it, Leanne, what's the sustainability of that?
Speaker A:How am I going to be able to sustain that over five years?
Speaker C:That's why I feel sorry for them, because they have to keep pounding the pavement.
Speaker C:I mean, they just have to keep going, going, going.
Speaker C:I wouldn't want to do it, you know, as a full time gig.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:It's tough.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, it is tough.
Speaker B:Hey, we're going to take a break here on the Nation.
Speaker B:We're going to be back with Ms. Leanne and of course, Chris Marks from Three Little Pigs Barbecue right after this.
Speaker B:Hey, everybody, it's Jeff here.
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Speaker B:Welcome back to Barbecue Nation.
Speaker B:I'm JT along with Leanne Whiffin.
Speaker B:Today we're very fortunate to have Chris Marks with us from Three Little Pigs Barbecue in the Kansas City area.
Speaker B:Chris has been featured on.
Speaker B:I pulled this right off your website, Chris.
Speaker B:So, okay.
Speaker B:Chris has been featured on food channels, Taste of America, travel channels, Barbecue Battle, lots of other local and regional barbecue shows.
Speaker B:And, and that.
Speaker B:And he does, does clinics, if you will, and does cooks for people and teaches them and trains them.
Speaker B:And I find that really cool that you do that.
Speaker B:Okay, so let's get away from the influencers for a few minutes.
Speaker B:We'll probably circle back to that because we, we love that topic on this show.
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:How did you get started?
Speaker B:Let people know a little bit about you.
Speaker B:How did.
Speaker B:Was this something that was family oriented or.
Speaker A:I was drug into it by my mom and dad.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Just literally drug into it.
Speaker A:My dad was a senior executive, Hallmark Cards and he retired.
Speaker A:And long story short, my mom said find him something to do.
Speaker A:We got him in Oklahoma Joe, actually, Joe Davison built him a smoker back in, I'm thinking 88.
Speaker A:And we started from there.
Speaker A:We started doing just local Kansas City barbecue contests and it just sort of grew from there and it sort of morphed.
Speaker A:He passed away in 97, actually, right before we won the American Royal Invitational for the first time and he passed away.
Speaker A:And then after that, it was me, my dad, or me, my mom and his brother, and we ran it out, the gambit and in competition barbecue.
Speaker A:And we only did like 10 to 15 contests a year maximum.
Speaker A: And about night about: Speaker A:And so that's actually going in on 22, 23 years now, the rub and sauce line.
Speaker A:And sort of where it started, you just morphed.
Speaker A:I was an IT guy.
Speaker A:I worked it.
Speaker A:I'm an engineer, and I actually quit about 20 years ago, and now I've done straight barbecue.
Speaker A:But I designed smokers.
Speaker A:I worked with the Goodwin brand.
Speaker A:I designed redesigned smokers, do a lot of work with a lot of manufacturers on design of smokers and how they laid out, work with a lot of restaurants on efficiency.
Speaker A:I come from an efficiency background and really sort of been able to be very blessed to maintain this barbecue hobby and not be in it for the rest of my life.
Speaker B:Well, don't you think your background there is kind of a full circle of what we're talking about and what we talk about all the time, the experience, the knowledge, the practicality, the reality of, of barbecue.
Speaker A:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And everybody wants their piece of it, and I understand that, and I know that because I want mine.
Speaker A:And, you know, it's just how we, how we manage to get our peace and maintain our peace.
Speaker A:It's always interesting for the new guys, the new up and comers, they want it now.
Speaker A:They want it now.
Speaker A:You know, it's.
Speaker A:It's about, you know, you got to have your passion for it.
Speaker A:You've got to be persistent.
Speaker A:And I'm very persistent person.
Speaker A:But on top of that, I'm a very strategic and tactical person, too.
Speaker A:And so I work with the right people to get it in the right direction.
Speaker A:And that's, again, that's when I deal with my business.
Speaker A:I always want to make sure I'm headed in the right direction.
Speaker A:Now, do I have to modify every now and then, head back and change direction every now?
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:But the important is to understand the persistence and passion.
Speaker A:You got to have a passion for it.
Speaker A:A lot of guys, you're putting your stuff out on the market for three or four years, you're doing pretty good, but it sort of wanes.
Speaker A:It sort of comes off you know, and, you know, I'm going to move other things because I'm not going to be a millionaire, like manufacturer who told me he's making my stuff for me.
Speaker A:They told me I'm going to be a millionaire.
Speaker A:Well, I'm not quite seeing that yet.
Speaker A:All right, so.
Speaker A:So again, you've got to be persistent in this business, but more importantly, you got to be smart.
Speaker A:You got to be careful who you partner with and things like that.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:I think a lot of people, because I had some experience in this.
Speaker B:Leanne has experience in this.
Speaker B:I think a lot of people think that.
Speaker B:And we've had them on the show.
Speaker B:I may, you know, they think they've made the world's best rub.
Speaker B:Nothing wrong with the rub.
Speaker B:It's fine.
Speaker B:Okay, but then how do you get it to market?
Speaker B:How do you keep it in the market?
Speaker B:How do you keep the quote, unquote edge, if you will, that people?
Speaker B:You know, you don't want to be on the bottom shelf, third row back type thing.
Speaker B:You know, you want to be up there, eye level and all those different things in dealing with that.
Speaker B:And I think it's a hell of a lot harder than people just think, well, I'm going to do this.
Speaker B:And we've had a little success online, and so now we're going to go get it in every Kroger store across the country.
Speaker A:Yeah, the grocery connection.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So no, you bring up a good point, is how do you.
Speaker A:How do you maintain the edge?
Speaker A:That's the big deal.
Speaker A:And I've been able to maintain it for 25 years because I have good partner, and that partner's Old World Spices.
Speaker A:And I'm very fortunate enough to be around since they started their program.
Speaker A:I was one of the original in it.
Speaker A:So when I laid this business out, I didn't want to be shipping.
Speaker A:I didn't want to be doing ar.
Speaker A:I wanted to be promoting because that's what I'm good at.
Speaker A:So basically what it is, is, you know, we worked out when it's called the program at Old World, they basically manufacture and they're my distributor, and I primarily do the promotion, and that's what I like doing.
Speaker A:I don't have to ship.
Speaker A:I don't have to worry about broken product.
Speaker A:That's not me.
Speaker A:My deal is to be out front making sure it's happening, and that's how I've been able to be successful in what I'm doing, not trying to do everything.
Speaker A:That's where you get so bogged down that you're having to deal with every minute detail that you can't focus on the big picture.
Speaker A:And again, I've been very fortunate enough to be with Old World.
Speaker B:I think you were lucky though, Chris, in one aspect is, I don't know.
Speaker B:I know some of the folks at Old World and I know Leanne does, too.
Speaker B:But I've dealt with distributors out here.
Speaker B:If you get in early as they're building these programs, you stand a pretty good chance of success.
Speaker B:If you do the follow up what you're talking about, if you come in later, sometimes there's more restrictions.
Speaker B:They've learned as they've gone along.
Speaker B:You've learned as you've gone along like that.
Speaker B:So I think you.
Speaker B:I'm not taking anything away from you, but I think you got lucky getting in there at the top level, our initial level.
Speaker A:I mean, remember, part business is luck.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Right place, right time.
Speaker A:I mean, that's part of business.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:We call it catching lightning in a bottle.
Speaker B:A sauce bottle.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:But, but again, they're going to give you a start, but you've got to do your own back end work.
Speaker B:Yeah, that is true.
Speaker B:We're going to take another break.
Speaker B:We're going to be back with Chris Marks from Three Little Pigs Barbecue right after this with Leanne and myself.
Speaker B:Stay with us.
Speaker B:Hey, everybody, it's JT And I have eaten.
Speaker B:If you've ever looked at me, you know that.
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Speaker B:If you want to learn more about Oregon Dungeness crab, just go to oregondungeness.org and find out how to cook it, how to catch it, where to buy it, and the sustainability of what they're doing there in the Oregon Crab Commission.
Speaker B:Check it out.
Speaker B:Welcome back to Barbecue Nation.
Speaker B:Thank you for being with us today.
Speaker B:We appreciate you inviting us into your world.
Speaker B:Today, Leanne and I are talking with Chris Marks from Three Little Pigs.
Speaker B:By the way, you can find Leanne's in my stuff.
Speaker B:All over social media is what we were talking about at the top of the show.
Speaker B:And you can find Chris's stuff out there, too.
Speaker B:And it's easy to contact us if you ever have a question or a comment or a suggestion through all the platforms.
Speaker B:And we have emails out There, Barbecue Nation, JT.com Anyway, talking with Chris Marks here, you talk about the, the sauces and, and your rubs and stuff.
Speaker B:How do you tie those in to your Your, your clinics, you're teaching like that.
Speaker B:Because a lot of people I've seen, they come and they, they'll do a class.
Speaker B:But the whole time during the class, what we were talking about at the top of the show, Chris, you've got an influencer and you should be using this spatula or my rub here on this and that.
Speaker B:How do you tie those in kind of semi, subtly and then make it make sense to the, the people you're teaching?
Speaker A:Well, first of all, we talk about the story of why I'm there.
Speaker A:Very important part.
Speaker A:And you know, I'm a legacy and this is part of what I do, the rubs and sauces and that's what we'll use for the class.
Speaker A:And again, it is what it is.
Speaker A:I'm not going to go to a store or and do a class and use somebody else's stuff.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Because again, that's just, I mean it defeats my whole cause.
Speaker A:And I'm very subtle about it.
Speaker A:I'm not.
Speaker A:I've learned through my years of sell, my 35 years of being on, on sales, on it.
Speaker A:I'm a soft sell guy.
Speaker A:I'm not that hardcore.
Speaker A:I'm going to jam it in your throat.
Speaker A:You only use my stuff when I talk.
Speaker A:When I teach a class, I teach a class and I tell them, these classes are about you guys.
Speaker A:Here's how I do it.
Speaker A:My deal is for you to be great at what you do, but use my rubs.
Speaker A:But if you don't like, it's not a big deal, modify them the way you and your family like to do it.
Speaker A:And again, I'm a soft sell.
Speaker A:I'm not a hard sell, never have been.
Speaker A:And again, that's why people ask me for.
Speaker A:I mean, I've been doing classes up in Chicago for 20 years now and they asked me to come back three times a year, four times a year up in Chicago.
Speaker A:Just keep coming back to their stores because I show them the value of how, first of all, sell my, buy my stuff.
Speaker A:But I show them the value, how that retailer can actually sell more stuff.
Speaker A:Because again, I come from a sales background.
Speaker A:It's just not about my rubs and sauces, is about how, how do I sell to that store?
Speaker A:How does that sell.
Speaker A:Store sell more things.
Speaker A:You know, I don't care what you cook on.
Speaker A:I sell green eggs, rectangs, Traegers, I don't care.
Speaker A:We're going to sell all those because I can cook on all of them.
Speaker B:It's what makes, what makes your.
Speaker B:I didn't mean to Interrupt you, but what makes your actual class, aside from the mechanics of the whatever cooker they're using, but what makes your class different?
Speaker A:No, that's a great question.
Speaker A:What makes my class different from the other guys is I teach absolute basics.
Speaker A:I start one on one, and we talk about charcoals, we talk about woods, we talk about the science of why we do what we do.
Speaker A:So many of these people have been on YouTube university, and they've never had any of the basics to even start with.
Speaker A:And that's what I'm running into.
Speaker A:And I run into it.
Speaker A:And that's again, part of everybody on social media not understanding the basics of smoke, fire and heat.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so we start there.
Speaker A:But the more important thing is this is I make it them.
Speaker A:I said, I'm going to wrap this around you guys, I'm going to go through that class, you're going to tell me your experience, and I.
Speaker A:And I'm going to wrap it around them.
Speaker A:And again, I don't care what you cook on.
Speaker A:And so many people come in there.
Speaker A:Well, you know, I cook on this and this is that.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:I'm going to show you the basics of how to cook on anything.
Speaker A:I don't care if it's a pellet cooker, I don't care if it's in the ground.
Speaker A:I don't care.
Speaker A:We're going to show you how to be basic, how to understand the science, and then you make the decision on what you want to cook on.
Speaker B:You cover all of them, like ribs and chicken and brisket and whatever or what.
Speaker A:I, I do a 101 and a 102.
Speaker A:A 101 is basically ribs and chicken and the basics of the charcoals in the woods.
Speaker A:What we're talking about there a lot of that science.
Speaker A:And then I do a 102, which is going to be the briskets and the butts, because they cook really good together.
Speaker A:Because I want them to smell them, I want them to taste them, I want them to have that whole experience.
Speaker A:And that's what a lot of them miss off social media is that experience of the smell, the taste, and the interaction with the actual instructor.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:Leanne brought this up earlier in the show.
Speaker B:One of my pet peeves is people, people on the YouTube University, as you call it, or Twitter X, always squeezing the snot out of the juices in the brisket.
Speaker B:That, that makes me crazy.
Speaker B:And Leanne already knows I'm crazy, so that's fine.
Speaker B:But I, I don't, I don't honestly see the Value in that.
Speaker B:I mean, it's.
Speaker B:You know, you can point to it and say, man, it looks really juicy, and then move on.
Speaker B: gh an old hand dryer from the: Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's that and the jiggle.
Speaker A:The brisket jiggle.
Speaker A:Yeah, you know, you see that all the time.
Speaker A:And, you know, you see it where they hold the slice up and, oh, look at my slice.
Speaker A:You know, and again, it's sort of.
Speaker A:I don't know if it's a right now to, you know, look at that brisket.
Speaker A:And guaranteed, every brisket you would cut like that, I could squeeze the hell out of it, too, and get juice out of it.
Speaker A:So, yeah, no matter how long, it's good.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But again, remember, we talk about perception, reality.
Speaker A:A lot of that comes down to.
Speaker C:That is, you know, so, Chris, with your business.
Speaker C:So you sell sauces and rubs, you teach classes for your revenue stream.
Speaker C:I mean, what's the most lucrative for you?
Speaker A:Rubs and sauces?
Speaker C:I'm finding that the market for rubs is higher than sauces, because I feel like it is.
Speaker A:And in the past, it was great, great point.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And why do you think a lot of that's happening for the sauces?
Speaker A:First of all, we've been.
Speaker A:I'm very.
Speaker A:I work with a guy who's a senior, actually, CEO of BMC Volume Merchandise.
Speaker A:And we always talk about just that.
Speaker A:We talk about strategies and we talk about the difference between sauces and rubs and all kinds of things, because he's not that familiar with rubs, because he comes from grocery background.
Speaker A:Remember back in the 50s and 60s when we had Bullseye, we had Masterpiece, and our sauces were 89 cents and 99 cents.
Speaker A:And all that perception that we talk about, sauces were brought in on the grocery with the perception of being cheap.
Speaker A:99 cents.
Speaker A:I mean, even today, we can still find.
Speaker A:We call them 10 for 10.
Speaker A:So you can still buy 10 for 99 cents.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:What's happening is now because of.
Speaker A:Basically we're specialty, so we're specialty or premium.
Speaker A:And they've actually have a new category called ultra premium now.
Speaker A: to: Speaker A:Leanne, have we.
Speaker A:What if we hit the sauce, what we call walkaways, to where people are going to look at that at 799, 699 and walk away?
Speaker A:Because still on that Shelf, you see them loaded with sweet baby rays for 1.99.
Speaker A:So that our sauces get into that price point because the perceptions that they had back in the 60s, 70s and 90s of that cheap condiment.
Speaker A:Are we getting to the point where they see that?
Speaker A:And it's just walk away.
Speaker A:I'm just.
Speaker A:And that's what he pretty much told me.
Speaker A:He says you're going to get to a price point on sauces and we're just talking sauces that you're going to actually walk away from.
Speaker A:So what I did is I look at the business and I actually eliminated three free sauces and I went down to my three, three top selling sauces and I brought out four new rubs.
Speaker A:So right there tells you, and we talked about if you go to a grocery store, you don't see rubs in the barbecue lane.
Speaker A:You just don't.
Speaker A:And then that's the grocery stores miss that they should have a whole barbecue section where everything's bound together.
Speaker A:Some are doing it, some are starting to do it, but most have separate, just all over the place.
Speaker A:If you look for a barbecue rub.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:But that barbecue rub has never really been what we call price pointed out to, especially the, especially the 12 dot sizes have really never been price pointed to the grocery public.
Speaker A:So there's no perception there on where that price point should be.
Speaker A:So again, I agree with you a hundred percent.
Speaker A:I starting to really weigh.
Speaker A:As the sauces are getting more towards the walkaway and even in specialty they're up to the799,899,999 price points and they're going to be walkaways.
Speaker B:Do you, Chris, do you think that we're reaching a saturation point?
Speaker A:I think we, I think we hit saturation a couple years ago.
Speaker B:Do you?
Speaker C:I do too.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And what I'm seeing with the saturation point is now we have micro manufacturer, micro batch guys.
Speaker A:They're basically everybody who took a fourth place at a barbecue contest now is having their rubs and things made.
Speaker A:And what they're doing with that is that manufacturers really just not tell them what the real, real world's all about.
Speaker A:They're just making a bunch of stuff and thinking that they're going to be able to schlep it over every store, running it around and, and just, you know, I'm going to give it to your store here.
Speaker A:I'm going to take your store here.
Speaker A:I'm going to take this.
Speaker A:And again, that's, that's not a real model that you could ever make.
Speaker B:Any money on, you know, I had a, I had a friend a few years ago, an acquaintance really, and he and his wife came up with some.
Speaker B:They were okay barbecue sauces.
Speaker B:They weren't world beaters, but they weren't bad either.
Speaker B:And he would give me an update every once in a while, every month or so, and he'd say, yeah, this, this store.
Speaker B:And they wanted eight cases here and this.
Speaker B:And so when I drilled down, having had a bit of experience with this, I would drill down on that.
Speaker B:And finally I said, you sure you're just not trading dollars or losing money all the time?
Speaker B:Because they're wanting, you know, they're wanting four cases of your top two sauces for 15 stores before they'll even talk to you.
Speaker B:And then they want you to buy a quarterly ad and they're insert.
Speaker B:And you know all the stuff I'm.
Speaker A:Talking about, oh, you're going in the right direction.
Speaker A:And, you know, you start talking grocery, you start talking about slotting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You start talking about early buys, you start talking about what we call load end.
Speaker A:Load end.
Speaker A:And it gets, you really have to have a really good AR system if you're really working grocery to figure out if you're making money.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Well, they're out of the business now, so, yeah, you know, it's kind of self fulfilling.
Speaker B:Props.
Speaker B:Prophecy.
Speaker B:We're going to take a break and come back and wrap up this part of the show with Chris Marks and Ms. Whippen.
Speaker B:Stay with us.
Speaker B:You're listening to Barbecue Nation.
Speaker B:Hey, everybody, it's jt.
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Speaker A:Foreign.
Speaker B:Welcome back to the nation.
Speaker B:I'm JT along with all star hall of Famer Leanne Whippen.
Speaker B:And today we're fortunate to be talking with Chris Martz from Three Little Pigs Barbecue in Kansas City.
Speaker B:If you were going to give a.
Speaker B:An overall observation, you were a competitor, but you really don't do that.
Speaker B:You're a instructor and teacher.
Speaker B:You're the professor of great things in all barbecue aspects and you work in the retail side.
Speaker B:What would your overall view of barbecue be right now?
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, another great question.
Speaker A:I wish you would told me that a couple of days ago so I can think about it overall right now, I think we're in a transition period and I that transition periods, basically we're going from.
Speaker A:How are we going?
Speaker A:The reality.
Speaker A:Remember we talked about the reality versus the perception.
Speaker A:How, how long is the perception going to be there?
Speaker A:Until everybody starts to balance out, basically.
Speaker A:Who's going to come out winning?
Speaker A:Is it going to be more the social media side or is it going to be more towards the traditionalist?
Speaker A:And I think we're sort of in that transition period right now.
Speaker A:And you know, do I know where it's going to go?
Speaker A:No, I don't.
Speaker A:You know, I, you know, I'm going to be able to play both directions because I sort of have a hybrid model set up.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:But there's a lot of guys who really are into this and they focus all on one piece.
Speaker A:And you know, I do get a lot of crap because I go out and do a lot of barbecue classes.
Speaker A:I do a lot of them.
Speaker A:And a lot of the people that I work with now have agents and they're going around basically calling around and setting stuff up for them.
Speaker A:I, I don't need one.
Speaker A:I mean, I, they call me now, right?
Speaker A:And so that's on my grind, as I call it.
Speaker A:That's my grind.
Speaker A:I'm going to continue to do my grind.
Speaker A:I have about 25 to 30 loyal.
Speaker A:I call them ambassadors, not influencers, because I have trained them, I have vetted them because, you know, one influencer, if you don't vet them, if they go, they say something wrong, basically.
Speaker A:Guess what, guys, that's you too, right?
Speaker A:So I have about 20, and I've worked with a lot of these guys for 20 some years, 25 years, very loyal to me and help me spread the word about three little pigs all across the country.
Speaker A:And the other thing is I focus on different demographics than a lot of the other guys.
Speaker B:I will, I will hazard a guess here.
Speaker B:My prognostication, I think, I think that people will become tired of.
Speaker B:Because we're already tired of being constantly bombarded every day.
Speaker A:Great, great point.
Speaker B:You know, images and this and news Flashes on your phone and all that.
Speaker B:And I think it'll sort itself out.
Speaker B:The, the influencers, they're not going to go away, but I think that people are going to start looking then say, realizing that my time is valuable to me and my family or my work, whatever it is.
Speaker B:And I don't have time to sit through 27 five minute videos every night that don't tell me jack.
Speaker B:You know, they're going to want to get to the heart of the matter with guys like you.
Speaker B:Leanne, what do you think about that?
Speaker C:I do.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:I think right now it's really unpredictable.
Speaker C:I almost feel like barbecue, I hate to use this word, but has kind of flatlined.
Speaker C:I don't know why I feel that way, but I just feel like it hit its peak, especially during COVID and everyone being home and it's just kind of not flatlined, but kind of settled down.
Speaker C:And Chris, kind of like you were saying, you don't know where it's going.
Speaker C:And I don't know either.
Speaker C:It'll always be around.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker C:You know, I don't know.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:I feel like we're in a really weird space right now.
Speaker A:I'm right with you.
Speaker A:I'm right with you.
Speaker A:I mean, I just, it's just, it's weird.
Speaker A:It is a weird space that just, you know.
Speaker A:And where's it going to go?
Speaker A:Because, you know, we're being also, we're being pushed by retailers to have 150, 200,000 followers.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:And, you know, and so a lot of these guys, these other influencer type, the way they go into that retailer is, well, you know, they do all they do.
Speaker A:They have all these world championships and all this and do all this kind of cool stuff, but guess What?
Speaker A:I got 250,000 followers.
Speaker C:That's right.
Speaker C:They want the followers.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they don't understand that those followers, most of them were bought.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:So, well, the, the age and I deal with a lot of marketing stuff with these shows and stuff we do just like you guys do.
Speaker B:But you can say you have 250,000 followers, but how many are actually looking at everything you drop out there?
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:You know, 10%, 5%, whatever.
Speaker B:You know, that 250,000 number that we've been kicking around is just a number as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker B:It's again, back to reality.
Speaker C:Chris, you said you go for a different demographic.
Speaker C:I kind of want to back up.
Speaker C:What did you mean by that?
Speaker A:Well, so let's call demographic.
Speaker A:So let's look at the United States.
Speaker A:Leanne, where do, and I know you're where do 80% of the barbecuers focus?
Speaker C:What do you mean?
Speaker A:Anybody, Anybody who's coming out with a new rub or a new, where are they going to go?
Speaker A:Try to focus.
Speaker A:Texas, you know, everybody, Everybody in.
Speaker A:If you see new rubs coming out, they're all coming to Texas.
Speaker A:I'm going to cook Texas stuff, you know, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker C:Yeah, Texas is at its highest point right now.
Speaker C:I feel like, like Kansas City was, but Texas has kind of jumped up.
Speaker A:I don't think Kansas City was even ever close to Texas.
Speaker C:I, I, I kind of do.
Speaker C:I kind of do.
Speaker C:But, you know, long time ago.
Speaker C:But you're right.
Speaker A:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker C:Long time right.
Speaker C:It is Texas.
Speaker C:Because if you're going to do a rub line, you got to have a Texas rub.
Speaker A:Absolutely correct.
Speaker A:You got, you got to have a salt, pepper, garlic.
Speaker A:You got to have something.
Speaker A:And so I'm like, you know, I'll let everybody have Texas.
Speaker A:And I do pretty well in Texas.
Speaker A:I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna focus on how many people are in Chicago, but 9 million.
Speaker A:I do majority of my work in Chicago.
Speaker A:Detroit, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Cleveland, New Jersey.
Speaker A:How many millions of people up there.
Speaker A:What true barbecue deserts are they?
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:And everybody, you know, hell, I, I can see Kansas City from my house.
Speaker A:You can have Kansas City, too, because again, demographics and then you know all about Chicago.
Speaker A:What does Chicago got a lot of, A lot of money.
Speaker A:And they have no problem spending.
Speaker A:Detroit, same way.
Speaker A:Cleveland, believe it or not, Cleveland, of all places, the same way.
Speaker A:And different demographics.
Speaker A:Now, are they harder to get to?
Speaker A:For me, absolutely.
Speaker A:Is it sort of a pain in the butt because I drive, I don't fly.
Speaker A:I drive.
Speaker A:I take all my stuff with me and I drive.
Speaker A:But I'm a driver.
Speaker A:I can drive forever.
Speaker A:I just drove back from Utah and I mean, it's, I'm a driver.
Speaker A:And so when me and my wife do this, and I tie my wife into this too, because she's a salesman and doesn't know it, she's probably my best.
Speaker A:And she's an ex teacher, so she's all about taking care of the people and all that kind of fun stuff.
Speaker A:So the female side of it, too, I cover that with my why.
Speaker A:And so that's what I've seen.
Speaker A:And that's why these organizations, these retailers up east say I need a year in advance.
Speaker A:I'm signing up classes for.
Speaker A:But again, I'm focusing more on Demographics, looking at basically expendable income and number of people.
Speaker B:Chris, where can people find your.
Speaker B:Your products?
Speaker B:I mean, online.
Speaker B:Where's.
Speaker B:Websites give us that.
Speaker A:So, so another point.
Speaker A:I don't sell online because most of the time I'm.
Speaker A:I'm out of town most of the time, and I sell online.
Speaker A:I have a couple, really on my website.
Speaker A:You'll see them.
Speaker A:I got four guys.
Speaker A:One out of Chicago, one out of Indy, and actually two out of Chicagoland.
Speaker A:My biggest is Ace Hardware.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I've been in Ace where for almost from day one, so a long time in Ace Hardware.
Speaker A:Lowe's.
Speaker A:Lowe's Hardware.
Speaker A:I've been in there quite a while now.
Speaker A:They don't carry every sku, but they carry enough shields.
Speaker A:Are you familiar with shields?
Speaker A:I know Leanne is.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Shields is very good.
Speaker C:What about Academy?
Speaker A:We are not in Academy.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I think they're talking to Academy.
Speaker C:I'm going to give you a plug because this is true.
Speaker C:True story.
Speaker C:Back in the wood chicks days in competition, in the early days, I sought out your cherry rub.
Speaker C:And to this day, I still love your cherry rub.
Speaker C:To me, the only rub that actually gives you a subtle, authentic cherry flavor without tasting synthetic.
Speaker C:And I love that rub.
Speaker C:It is one of my favorites.
Speaker A:So a little history about the cherry rub.
Speaker A:That was my mom's rub.
Speaker A:Oh, oh, y.
Speaker A:And we made more fun of that.
Speaker A:And I mean, it's a sissy anime.
Speaker A:You know, my dad was made the championship stuff and I made a bunch of them too, but my mom made the cherry rub.
Speaker A:And what do you think's the best seller?
Speaker B:The cherry Rubber?
Speaker A:The cherry.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:It really dynamite.
Speaker C:It is.
Speaker C:It is fantastic.
Speaker A:We used to make fun of her.
Speaker A:And he called it the rub.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And it is.
Speaker A:It's a great.
Speaker A:The rub.
Speaker A:And my parents had very, very good.
Speaker A:No, they formerly trained culinary skills, but very good culinary skills.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:And especially my dad, and he just could smell it and taste it, and if it worked together, he knew.
Speaker A:And my mom was just a good.
Speaker A:Just a good cook.
Speaker B:There you go, Chris.
Speaker B:We got to get out of here.
Speaker B:For the regular show, Chris Marks, everybody from Three Little Pigs Barbecue.
Speaker B:Go to their website, read some more of his story and see their products.
Speaker B:And I got to get my hands on a.
Speaker B:On a jug of that cherry rub here shortly.
Speaker B:But anyway, if you're going to stick around for after hours, that'll be coming up next on the pods and stuff.
Speaker B:Until then, Chris, thank you.
Speaker B:We appreciate it.
Speaker B:And Leanne, I'll see you in two minutes here, so.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:Thank you, everybody, for listening and inviting us into your home.
Speaker B:Remember our motto here.
Speaker B:Turn it, don't burn it, Go out, be kind.
Speaker B:Take care.
Speaker A:Barbecue Nation is produced by jtsd, LLC Productions in association with Salem Media Group.
Speaker A:All rights reserved.
