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Published on:

16th Nov 2024

Encore - John Markus - Creator of BBQ Pitmasters

John Marcus, an Emmy-winning writer and director, joins the hosts of Barbecue Nation to share his fascinating journey through the world of barbecue, including his creation of the iconic show Barbecue Pitmasters. He discusses his deep-rooted passion for low and slow cooking, which began unexpectedly during a writing session with Al Franken. The conversation touches on the evolution of barbecue culture, the importance of community in cooking, and the challenges faced in bringing authentic barbecue to television. With engaging anecdotes and insights into the barbecue scene, Marcus highlights the joy of serving home-cooked meals to troops during his time in Kuwait, emphasizing the emotional connection that food creates. The episode showcases Marcus's love for barbecue and the profound experiences it has brought into his life.

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Transcript
JT:

It's time for Barbecue Nation with jt so fire up your grill, light the charcoal, and get your smoker cooking.

JT:

Now from the Turn It, Don't Burn it studios in Portland, here's jt.

:

Hey, everybody.

:

Welcome to Barbecue Nation.

:

I'm jt along with my co host, hall of Famer Leanne Whippen, coming to you from the respective Turn It, Don't Burn it studios in Portland and Tampa.

:

We would like to thank the folks at Painted Hills Natural Beef Beef the way nature intended, and also the good folks at the Oregon Dungeness Crab Commission.

:

That is great stuff.

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If you've never had West Coast Dungeness crab, you're missing out, so check them out online.

:

And also the good folks at Painted Hills.

:

Well, we got a very.

:

Excuse me.

:

We've got a very honored guest with us today, John Marcus, who is an Emmy award winning writer and director and creator of the original Barbecue Pit Masters.

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Fascinating guy.

:

And we're going to get more into that.

:

And John also happens to be in the Barbecue hall of fame with Ms.

:

Whippen.

:

So I always.

John Marcus:

Same class.

Leanne Whippen:

Same class, I might add.

:

Same class.

:

Yeah, I'm always the third wheel.

:

Yeah, I'm always the third wheel.

:

When we get the hall of Famers in here, I'm like.

:

But anyway, John, welcome to the show.

John Marcus:

It's a treat to be here.

John Marcus:

I've listened, and I really was looking forward to this because I'm a fan of both ears.

John Marcus:

So thank you for.

John Marcus:

For having me.

John Marcus:

And I also think that, Leanne, you and I were in a very special inductee year of the Barbecue hall of Fame.

Leanne Whippen:

I agree.

John Marcus:

I mean, I'm not to say anything bad about the years that have followed.

John Marcus:

There have only been two, correct?

:

Yes.

Leanne Whippen:

Well, there.

John Marcus:

Yeah.

Leanne Whippen:

Two, Right.

Leanne Whippen:

Yeah.

Leanne Whippen:

I can do math.

John Marcus:

You got to be able to if you barbecue.

John Marcus:

And I know you well, so, you know, you do that.

John Marcus:

But that was a.

John Marcus:

That was a quite an honor and a thrilling phone call to get.

John Marcus:

And I would probably be pointed out to me right now by Meathead, because that is his legal name.

Leanne Whippen:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

He would say to me, well, you know, I got in before you.

:

Oh, yeah, yeah.

John Marcus:

Very competitive guy.

:

Yes, yes.

John Marcus:

He's earned the right.

John Marcus:

But, oh, my gosh, he can.

John Marcus:

He.

John Marcus:

He really.

John Marcus:

He has not lost the fire.

:

No.

Leanne Whippen:

So let me ask you this.

Leanne Whippen:

Did I see that you got your phb?

John Marcus:

I do have my php.

John Marcus:

I kneeled before Artie Davis, and I.

Leanne Whippen:

Want to do that.

Leanne Whippen:

I want to go through the process.

Leanne Whippen:

I haven't done it.

Leanne Whippen:

My dad had it and, yeah, when I saw that, I'm like, that's so cool.

Leanne Whippen:

I didn't know that anybody was really still doing that, but it's a cool thing.

John Marcus:

Mine came probably eight, nine years ago, and it was a great honor.

John Marcus:

And along with Nicole Davenport.

John Marcus:

Davenport, who's the Texas steak master and great.

John Marcus:

And one of the people that taught me how to cook pit barbecue.

John Marcus:

We.

John Marcus:

We both got.

John Marcus:

I guess you say, like, knighted.

John Marcus:

It's like being.

John Marcus:

And he has a whole ritual that he does, and.

John Marcus:

And it's serious.

John Marcus:

And I got this mop.

John Marcus:

This mop that he's written, you know, the honor upon this.

John Marcus:

Upon the stick of the mop, and I have it framed in my house upstate.

John Marcus:

And there's not a person that walks by it that knows what the hell it is.

John Marcus:

You really have to stop and say, well, that's a basting mop.

John Marcus:

But not in this case.

John Marcus:

That's how you.

Leanne Whippen:

Yeah, that's cool.

:

So, John, I wanted to ask you, how's the.

:

How's the barbecue addiction thing coming with you?

John Marcus:

My personal barbecue addiction, you mean?

:

Yes, yes.

John Marcus:

Well, I always say that it was started as a hobby, but now it's a hobby in need of an intervention, so.

John Marcus:

Addiction is a good word.

John Marcus:

I am still hopelessly addicted to the process of low and slow outdoor smoking of these proteins.

John Marcus:

I still love it.

John Marcus:

And I have these events coming up.

John Marcus:

I'm.

John Marcus:

You know, I haul out the.

John Marcus:

The rotisseries I have on the trailer.

John Marcus:

One of them being a jed that Leanne knows all about.

John Marcus:

Yep.

John Marcus:

And then I have another smoker that was delivered to me and never worked properly, and I stripped it out and turned it into a jet.

John Marcus:

And it's beautiful piece of work.

John Marcus:

I won't go into who gave me that smoker.

Leanne Whippen:

I know.

John Marcus:

But it was sold to me in a way that didn't seem to function.

John Marcus:

So I got that done.

John Marcus:

It was funny.

John Marcus:

I had this pit, and I.

John Marcus:

No one north of the Mason Dixon line really knows how this stuff is made.

John Marcus:

Barbecue is made.

John Marcus:

They do now, more so because of the TV show.

John Marcus:

I think it's helped awareness of barbecue.

John Marcus:

And now people are doing it.

John Marcus:

You can see.

John Marcus:

I can see, like, barbecue joints springing up.

John Marcus:

But I had this project I wanted to do to convert this smoker, and there were welders in this abandoned warehouse in Hudson, New York, two guys who looked like they could have been part of a heavy metal band.

John Marcus:

And they.

John Marcus:

They welded in the dark in this big shop, and they got work, a lot of work.

John Marcus:

They're very good.

John Marcus:

And I drove the pit into the floor, onto the floor of this warehouse.

John Marcus:

And they looked at it and they said, well, what does it do?

John Marcus:

And I said, well, the purpose here is to cook meat with smoke and embers over low temperature.

John Marcus:

But I have these ideas.

John Marcus:

And that was the first time they'd ever seen a pit.

:

Wow.

John Marcus:

And that was great for me to have to put into words what it should do.

Leanne Whippen:

Right.

John Marcus:

And they did a fantastic job.

John Marcus:

They did a fantastic job.

John Marcus:

And it's one of my favorite things to cook on now.

Leanne Whippen:

That's great for you.

:

Good for you.

:

What?

John Marcus:

So that.

John Marcus:

Is that the long winded answer to am I still addicted?

:

Yes.

:

Yeah, that's okay.

John Marcus:

That's okay.

:

And we promise no intervention today.

:

Okay.

John Marcus:

But you're going to have to come and find me, Jeff.

John Marcus:

But.

:

Okay.

:

All right.

:

I'm pretty good at finding people.

John Marcus:

Okay.

:

What prompted all this for you?

:

What prompted your interest in barbecue and low and slow and then graduated up to putting it on television?

John Marcus:

It was, it was an unexpected turn in my life's events.

John Marcus:

I mean, I been busy writing for TV and, and still write now.

John Marcus:

I write mostly for the theater.

John Marcus:

I mean, I'm primarily a writer.

John Marcus:

And, and, and I was writing a project up at my house.

John Marcus:

I, I had.

John Marcus:

Or had a pilot ordered with Al Franken, the alumni of Saturday Night Live.

John Marcus:

Right.

John Marcus:

Bestselling author, former senator.

John Marcus:

At the time.

John Marcus:

He had been, he had been a writer and a performer on snl and he'd also published these books, a couple of them.

John Marcus:

And I didn't know anything about barbecue.

John Marcus:

I grew up in Ohio, middle of Ohio, which now they have an awareness.

:

Right.

John Marcus:

And you, both of you must know people in the Midwest now who are.

John Marcus:

Barbecue in the upper Midwest, like.

Leanne Whippen:

Right.

Leanne Whippen:

It's not so much in Ohio.

Leanne Whippen:

A few.

John Marcus:

Yeah, a few.

John Marcus:

I don't know what it is about my state.

John Marcus:

Maybe it's the fact that it's the gateway to the Midwest or it's the crossovers, I don't know.

John Marcus:

But it is not a big deal there in any way.

John Marcus:

A couple of places in Columbus now, and I'm sure in Cleveland as well.

Leanne Whippen:

Yeah.

Leanne Whippen:

Michael.

Leanne Whippen:

Michael Simon would beg to differ because isn't he Ohio?

:

Yeah, he is.

:

Yes.

John Marcus:

I remember as a kid there was a place in Cincinnati called Montgomery Brothers where you could get mail order ribs from them.

John Marcus:

They were on.

John Marcus:

They had a restaurant on the river there and you could go and get like spares there and all of it was parboiled.

:

Oh, geez.

John Marcus:

But you know you love what you grow up with, right?

:

Yeah, right.

John Marcus:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

That's what you love.

John Marcus:

And so I didn't know what this cuisine was.

John Marcus:

And Al, during one of our writing sessions, he saw a unused Weber kettle on my.

John Marcus:

On my patio.

John Marcus:

It was just shiny and new because I didn't use it.

John Marcus:

I bought it because I had a house, and I thought I should, but didn't use it.

John Marcus:

He said, you don't know this about me, John, but I'm a grillmeister.

:

Wow.

John Marcus:

I make the best ribs in New England.

John Marcus:

And I thought, like, what?

John Marcus:

That was a very confusing title to take, you know?

:

Right.

:

Oh, yeah, yeah.

John Marcus:

But we set about making his ribs, which involved marinating them in hefty bags with a couple of pounds of sugar and a bushel of garlic and gallons of soy sauce.

:

Oh, wow.

Leanne Whippen:

Wow.

John Marcus:

And he wanted me to get that charcoal grill as hot as possible.

John Marcus:

And he cooked those in 25 minutes.

:

Wow.

John Marcus:

We sat down to eat, and I'm ignorant of what it's supposed to be.

John Marcus:

We sat down to eat, and I couldn't even chew them.

John Marcus:

And he ate all his.

John Marcus:

And he ate all mine.

John Marcus:

That, you know, they.

John Marcus:

I'd gnawed on him a little bit.

John Marcus:

He just finished them all.

John Marcus:

And a switch went off in my head.

John Marcus:

What is this?

John Marcus:

Why is it a beloved cuisine?

John Marcus:

And who the hell can I find to show me how to do it?

:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

And all research at that point pointed to Paul Kirk.

:

Oh, sure.

John Marcus:

Paul Kirk, the baron of barbecue.

:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

Oh, we've all had dealings with Paul.

John Marcus:

Right, right, right.

:

Yeah.

:

He's a character, too.

John Marcus:

He was.

John Marcus:

He's.

John Marcus:

Oh, my.

John Marcus:

He's an original.

:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

And.

John Marcus:

And, you know, also a pathfinder.

John Marcus:

Let's call him that.

John Marcus:

I mean, he.

John Marcus:

His book on rubs and sauces, I think is one of the best books, a How to books of barbecue.

John Marcus:

I don't know how you guys feel about it.

Leanne Whippen:

I have it.

Leanne Whippen:

And I agree.

:

I have it.

:

I agree.

:

Yeah, yeah.

John Marcus:

Simple, straightforward.

John Marcus:

This is what you can do.

John Marcus:

And so I called his home.

John Marcus:

I got the phone number because the Internet was new then, but I got Paul Kirk's home phone number, and his daughter answered the phone, and she was in a terrible mood.

John Marcus:

And I introduced myself and said, I want to learn how to do this.

John Marcus:

And Paul seems to be the guy I can learn from.

John Marcus:

And she said, well, he's got me.

John Marcus:

He's got me in the house all day making his damn sauce.

John Marcus:

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.

John Marcus:

Yeah, I know.

John Marcus:

And I can't stand doing this.

John Marcus:

And.

John Marcus:

And.

John Marcus:

And, look, look, I don't know who you Are.

John Marcus:

But if you want to learn from my dad, write him a check for $500 and you can go cook with them.

John Marcus:

That's what I did.

:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

And.

John Marcus:

And I got on an airplane and his directions were, rent a car at the airport at Kansas City and drive to Lenexa, Kansas.

John Marcus:

And at Lenexa, there's a Lenexa barbecue battle, which is the oldest contest in the U.S.

John Marcus:

and I was on Paul's team, and Paul's team consisted of me and Paul.

John Marcus:

He found himself a sucker.

John Marcus:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

And he, and he was himself.

John Marcus:

It was like he gave me a hard time about things.

John Marcus:

He, you know, to him, what's this?

John Marcus:

He thought of me as a New Yorker, even though I'm an Ohio guy.

John Marcus:

Like, what does he know and why, you know, And.

John Marcus:

And it was sort of a baptism by fire.

:

Sure.

Leanne Whippen:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

And then I got to meet the really wonderful people associated with the kcbs.

John Marcus:

Carolyn Wells was there, Artie was there, all that crew, that original crew.

John Marcus:

So it was a really fortunate introduction to the field.

John Marcus:

And I, I'm forever grateful to Paul, but I'm even more grateful to Al Franken for serving me shitty ribs.

:

There you go.

:

There you go.

:

We're going to take a break.

:

We're going to be back with John Marcus and more stories from the barbecue wars.

:

As far as him coming up through the ranks, you might say, on Barbecue Nation.

:

Stay with us.

Jeff:

Hey, everybody, it's Jeff here.

Jeff:

I want to tell you about something really cool.

Jeff:

Heritage steel cookware.

Jeff:

I just got mine.

Jeff:

I do a lot of cooking and it's got five ply construction.

Jeff:

Stay cool handles.

Jeff:

It's titanium strengthened.

Jeff:

It's got all the great stuff.

Jeff:

Just go to Heritage Steel US and find out more.

Jeff:

You'll love it.

Jeff:

I guarantee it.

:

Welcome back to the Nation.

:

I'm JT along with hall of famer Leanne Whippen.

:

If you want to find us, we've got links on all the main site to get to all the different sites that Leanne and I have.

:

And it's just barbecue nation, jt.com.

:

yeah, you can get to her sites, her social media, my sites, my social media, all that stuff.

:

It's all good.

:

Well, we're talking with John Marcus today.

:

Not only a Hall of Famer, but an Emmy winning writer, director.

Jeff:

Feel.

:

I don't want to say theologian.

:

What's the right term I'm looking for there, John, as far as proselytizer.

John Marcus:

Yes.

:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

Barbecue.

John Marcus:

And.

:

So did your friends in the, in the writing circles, in the media circles, if you will.

:

Did they look at you like, what in the hell are you doing?

John Marcus:

You know, I have a friend.

John Marcus:

I'll tell you two examples.

John Marcus:

I have an old.

John Marcus:

One of my oldest friends here is a movie director named Joe Rubin.

John Marcus:

And we know each other quite well.

John Marcus:

Where he's my eating buddy, and he knows food.

John Marcus:

And we.

John Marcus:

In Manhattan, we go out to eat.

John Marcus:

We're always complaining about the meals we get here.

John Marcus:

Everything in Manhattan is like a disappointment, basically.

John Marcus:

I hate to say it, but you.

John Marcus:

You get charged a lot of money.

John Marcus:

These restaurants are touted as fantastic.

John Marcus:

You gotta go.

John Marcus:

And then you go.

John Marcus:

And then it's sort of, like, disappointing.

John Marcus:

But Joe said that when I began the hobby, he would have bet his whole bank account that I would have lost interest in a month.

John Marcus:

He.

John Marcus:

And he couldn't believe, you know, I was bringing home some equipment I was starting, very simple.

John Marcus:

I started with a Weber Smokey Mountain.

John Marcus:

And because Paul said, don't spend money.

John Marcus:

You don't need money.

John Marcus:

Don't spend a lot of money on the meat, and don't spend money on equipment.

John Marcus:

Just learn how to do it a very simple way.

John Marcus:

Great advice.

John Marcus:

I give that advice often.

John Marcus:

And.

John Marcus:

And Joe was surprised to see that the hobby grew and grew and the equipment got bigger.

John Marcus:

The, you know, friends were coming up to my house to try it.

John Marcus:

But the person that was the most surprised by this sudden change in my life was my psychotherapist.

:

He.

John Marcus:

He was a Freudian, so he doesn't talk much.

John Marcus:

He's no longer with us.

John Marcus:

He died at 91 years of age.

John Marcus:

He.

John Marcus:

He actually spoke up during one of my.

John Marcus:

My sessions.

John Marcus:

Imagine.

John Marcus:

I mean, I'm lying on a couch.

John Marcus:

Because that's old school.

:

Right?

John Marcus:

And.

John Marcus:

And out of the middle of nowhere he goes, where the hell did this barbecue thing come from with you?

John Marcus:

And it was a great thing to hear him say because I had to figure that out.

John Marcus:

You know, I'm paying this guy good money to lie down there and talk.

John Marcus:

And.

John Marcus:

And it was a good thing to think about on a personal level.

John Marcus:

That barbecue for me is about creating community.

John Marcus:

Community.

John Marcus:

And in your colleagues, the people who you learn from, who cook community.

John Marcus:

And the people that get to come and eat food like they could not have anywhere near where they live.

John Marcus:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

People like I.

John Marcus:

I mostly serve Yankees.

:

Right, right.

:

Like you said, it's the.

:

You're well above the Manson Nixon line.

John Marcus:

So the man.

John Marcus:

Yes, I'm well above it.

John Marcus:

First time I've heard it call that.

John Marcus:

And that's right.

John Marcus:

And.

John Marcus:

And when you have people.

John Marcus:

People go, like, I've Never had this before.

John Marcus:

I've never had anything like this.

John Marcus:

Because we all know that at a certain level of this food, cooking it, and you guys do it, and we know people that do it, that it is.

John Marcus:

It is an otherworldly experience.

John Marcus:

You get to taste things like nothing else around.

:

Do you find, John, that one of your greatest pleasures is when you're.

:

You've got friends over whatever, and you're serving ribs.

:

Tri tips, doesn't matter.

:

And they smile and they look at you and they kind of mutter about how good it is and, and that I, I find that, personally, I think Leanne does too.

:

That's one of my greatest joys in life.

John Marcus:

I.

John Marcus:

I agree.

John Marcus:

I agree totally with that.

John Marcus:

I'll add to it that the night before I'm going to be barbecuing because as we know, it's a full day affair.

John Marcus:

Often the actor getting his product the night before I go to bed with the smile.

John Marcus:

I put my head on a pillow, knowing what I get to do the next day.

:

Yeah, Yeah.

John Marcus:

I can't say I feel that way at a contest.

:

No problem.

John Marcus:

I don't do contests anymore.

:

Yeah, yeah.

John Marcus:

But I did a party.

John Marcus:

I did a party last weekend for if I love you, I will do barbecue for you.

John Marcus:

I cooked a wedding reception for two people.

John Marcus:

I love someone who I adore.

John Marcus:

Her husband was having an 84th birthday party and he likes my ribs.

John Marcus:

That.

John Marcus:

Which are competition style.

John Marcus:

Who doesn't like those, right?

:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

And it was a full day cook.

John Marcus:

I had to have two pits working to get the food done because there were 40 people.

John Marcus:

And it was one of the great days.

John Marcus:

It was such a good day.

John Marcus:

I mean, I get pleasure from a script, but, you know, the thing about a script is it's years in the making and it's heartbreak and disappointment, but a good smooth cook is like, almost like a nice.

John Marcus:

Like you're getting to take Ambien or something.

:

Yeah.

:

I never thought of it that way, but that's true.

:

I just.

Leanne Whippen:

It is medicinal.

Leanne Whippen:

I mean, I find cooking in general, it takes my mind off of things and I find it relaxes me.

Leanne Whippen:

And.

Leanne Whippen:

Yeah, it's like chill mode, except in competition.

:

Yeah, I agree.

:

I think it's very therapeutic.

:

Back to your shrink, John.

:

But I think it's very therapeutic because I get lost in that world.

:

Everything else is shut out for a period of time.

Leanne Whippen:

Right.

John Marcus:

It's like, it's like you kind of disappear because you've got so many tasks.

John Marcus:

What?

John Marcus:

You know, I've had people come up and stay with Me during a cook at my house, and they have no idea all the moving parts in making barbecue.

:

Right.

John Marcus:

It's.

John Marcus:

It's.

John Marcus:

It's a day of prep.

John Marcus:

It's a day of cooking.

John Marcus:

It's a day of cleanup.

John Marcus:

And it's a little dangerous sometimes to work with these hot surfaces.

John Marcus:

And, sure, you know, I'm always getting injured when I cook, but I see the little scars and burn marks here and there as my badges of honor.

:

Yes, yes, yes.

John Marcus:

So.

John Marcus:

But it is.

John Marcus:

It is.

John Marcus:

It's hard to communicate that to others.

:

But, you know, I've gotten to the point that I don't even mind the cleanup anymore.

:

I did for a long time.

:

And when I had a.

:

Well, I had a.

:

Excuse me.

:

Gosh.

:

I had a catering company, and so I always had people to help, you know, clean up and all that, and I don't anymore.

:

And I just find it buys me, if you will, an extra day of solitude or an extra half day.

:

Whatever it takes.

John Marcus:

Yes.

John Marcus:

Yes.

:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

Well, Jeff, I would say to you, if you gotten to the point where you don't mind cleanup, now I'll tell you where I live.

:

Okay.

John Marcus:

I'll even get a plane ticket.

John Marcus:

That's.

:

Okay.

Jeff:

All right.

:

Hey, we're.

John Marcus:

I steam clean my own pits.

John Marcus:

You know, I.

John Marcus:

I used to have someone come and do that, but I just decided, you know, it's good for me to do it.

John Marcus:

I really feel it is actually a character builder.

:

Oh, yeah.

John Marcus:

To learn how to do it in a way that you don't.

John Marcus:

You know, you still maintain your patina and your.

:

Yeah, absolutely.

:

Hey, we're going to take another break.

:

We're going to be back with Emmy winning John Marcus Barbecue hall of Fame.

:

I almost said Pitmasters hall of fame.

:

And we're going to talk about pit masters when we come back.

:

Stay with us.

Jeff:

Hey, everybody, it's jt And I have eaten.

Jeff:

If you've ever looked at me, you know that.

Jeff:

But I have eaten seafood all over the world, and I can tell you there's no place better than here in Oregon and our Dungeness crab.

Jeff:

If you want to learn more about Oregon Dungeness crab, just go to oregondungeness.org and find out how to cook it, how to catch it, where to buy it, and the sustainability of what they're doing there in the Oregon Crab Commission.

Jeff:

Check it out.

:

Welcome back to the nation again.

:

We'd like to thank the folks at Painter Hills Natural beef.

:

Beef the way nature intended.

:

And little drum roll here, Leanne.

:

Pig powder.

Leanne Whippen:

Pig powder.

Leanne Whippen:

My Dad's dry rub.

Leanne Whippen:

John, you know pig powder?

John Marcus:

I do.

John Marcus:

I know it.

Leanne Whippen:

Yeah.

Leanne Whippen:

So, yes, pigpowder.com you can get 24 ounces right now.

Leanne Whippen:

They were out of stock, and I'm working on some label adjustments, and then the little guys will be in.

Leanne Whippen:

But one best rub on the planet, and a lot of competitors use it and people in general, and you can get it on Amazon as well.

:

I still think you should send autographed photographs with an order of.

Leanne Whippen:

Well, it's funny.

Leanne Whippen:

We have John on the show now.

Leanne Whippen:

I remember when we were shooting these pictures for barbecue pit masters, and I have a big log with a hatchet in it that I had to throw over my shoulder for the photo shoot.

Leanne Whippen:

And I'm like, how are they going to get that hatchet in there?

Leanne Whippen:

Well, they took like, a chainsaw and then grooved it and then put the hatchet in there.

Leanne Whippen:

And I remember holding it, and it was getting heavier and heavier and heavier.

:

Anyway, John, what possessed you to do pit masters?

:

I mean, you created it and you directed it.

:

It was your babies.

:

Did you see a need for it?

:

Was it more out of love for your love for barbecue?

:

Or what was the.

:

As they would say in Hollywood, what's the thought behind this?

John Marcus:

What's the thought behind it?

John Marcus:

Well, to really get to the thought of barbecue pit masters, we got to go back to All Star Barbecue Showdown, sure was suggested to me and co executive produced with me and actually starring Chris Lilly, the great Chris Lilly, who, when I was doing.

John Marcus:

I was recording a radio show at Big Bob Gibson in Decatur, Alabama, with Chris.

John Marcus:

They graciously allowed me to come and interview people.

John Marcus:

I was doing a thing, a segment called Good Ribbon for Al Franken, who had a liberal radio show at the time.

John Marcus:

And we would.

John Marcus:

I would go around the country.

John Marcus:

I took my love of barbecue, the beginning of it, and I would interview people about who has the best ribs and where we are and talk about barbecue as part of these political segments.

John Marcus:

And at the end of the segment, Chris pitched me, why can't you do Iron Chef for barbecue?

John Marcus:

So the whole idea of a competition show posted that way was something that Chris had suggested to me.

John Marcus:

And then together we developed it into a TV series and sold it to the Outdoor Life Network, which had a maple leaf.

John Marcus:

A maple leaf logo in the corner.

John Marcus:

And it actually had been nicknamed the Hook and Bullet Network.

John Marcus:

I remember back in the day.

John Marcus:

And this is.

John Marcus:

This is about a decade ago.

John Marcus:

And we did the show, which was just basically kind of a competition piggybacked on Another competition.

John Marcus:

And that's how the show began.

John Marcus:

But then I decided at a certain point, Chris went off to do his things and I decided, well, what would it be like to do a documentary style show about teams competing and follow real teams around actual contests?

John Marcus:

And that's what gave life to barbecue pitmasters.

John Marcus:

So.

John Marcus:

And that show is still in reruns even though they.

John Marcus:

They turned it back to a competition series.

John Marcus:

And everywhere I go in the world of barbecue, I hear the same thing, which is, John, everything after season one sucks.

:

How did you connect?

Leanne Whippen:

I get that, too.

Leanne Whippen:

And a lot of people.

Leanne Whippen:

A lot of people want to know if you're going to bring back the old style one.

John Marcus:

Yeah, I, you know, I do the show again with in a heartbeat because that's the show.

John Marcus:

That's really what the pure, authentic show was supposed to be.

John Marcus:

And I loved what we did with those stories and we were pretty true to the field.

John Marcus:

When you say, having been absolutely part of that show, Liam.

Leanne Whippen:

Yeah.

Leanne Whippen:

It was not scripted.

Leanne Whippen:

It was.

Leanne Whippen:

It was the real deal.

Leanne Whippen:

It was well edited because there was a lot of footage, obviously, when you're doing overnight cooks and traveling and this and that, but.

Leanne Whippen:

And it wasn't like we had to win every contest.

Leanne Whippen:

It was the journey of doing what you do whether you win or lose.

John Marcus:

You know, that's right.

John Marcus:

And that gave it a drama and you liked everybody.

John Marcus:

But the reason the network canceled it and decided to revamp it is they were upset that our members weren't winning every week.

John Marcus:

That's why they canceled it.

John Marcus:

Well, your people aren't winning.

John Marcus:

And I said, well, that's the heartbreak is part of the whole thing.

John Marcus:

If we're going to do a real show, this is what really happens.

John Marcus:

And it's interesting whether they win or not.

:

Right?

Leanne Whippen:

Well, that didn't work.

:

You know, John, I wasn't on a barbecue reality show.

:

I was on a food show, which shall rename, remain nameless because I thought it was horrible.

:

But when I went in to do the shoot and we were down in Georgia and we were doing the shoot, I figured out about 20 minutes into this deal that they already had their winners picked and this.

:

And I was.

:

And when I.

:

When I really found that out is when I went to get the supplies for my original recipe, you had to send in three recipes.

:

Okay.

:

And I went to do this, and they said, oh, you can't do that one, because we've never seen that type of thing at a state fair.

:

And I said, well, I live on the west coast and I've Traveled all over the country many times, been to a lot of state fairs.

:

And I.

:

You could see this at any state fair.

:

No, you can't.

:

So I had to do my second one.

:

Then they mislabeled it intentionally as a breakfast item, which it was not.

:

And in fact, one of the judges said, well, where's the syrup?

:

And I said, there's no syrup in this thing.

:

And so it really, you know, kind of.

:

Well, one, it offended me, but nobody cares about that.

:

But two, I just thought, what a disservice to the viewer.

John Marcus:

Well, they, unfortunately, the worst of television and I buy worst.

John Marcus:

I'm talking about the ethics and the approach to the audience that some networks have, which is they think less of people, they feel things have to be dumbed down or relatable.

John Marcus:

And no hit show has ever been developed with those condescending attitudes toward an audience.

John Marcus:

No hit show comes out of that.

John Marcus:

It shows.

John Marcus:

And, and the fact that our show, you know, season one of Pit Masters is still there and still, it just shows you that it, we were, we never tried to manipulate anything.

John Marcus:

Leanne, you know, I know you're going to give me the right answer here, but you were.

Leanne Whippen:

That's true.

John Marcus:

We, I stood up for the Pit Masters and, and, and, and Brian Catalina was somebody who understood that and he had to get his show done.

John Marcus:

But we, we didn't have to compromise the truth ever, right?

John Marcus:

What it takes to cook this food.

John Marcus:

And that's what made it, the grittiness of it and the heartbreak of it was really interesting.

John Marcus:

And I, I don't know if I've told you this, but year four of barbecue Pitmasters, when it was full on game show, just a friggin game show.

John Marcus:

I asked to have a meeting with the head of the network at Destination America, which I don't think exists anymore.

John Marcus:

It's another name now.

John Marcus:

The network.

Leanne Whippen:

Got some American destination.

Leanne Whippen:

Oh, okay, maybe, I don't know.

John Marcus:

Well, I had a, I had a lunch with this gentleman and this is the first time in my career I've, of course, I've never worked in a, on a barbecue show my whole other career.

John Marcus:

But I asked him, after the salads were consumed if he would please cancel the show.

:

What did he say?

John Marcus:

He looked at me like, who's this fucking lunatic I've got?

John Marcus:

I said, look, I'm here to offer any possible ways to take what it is now and make it better, but if you guys don't want to listen to any of these ideas, please take it off the air.

John Marcus:

And he just looked at me, you know, chewing his lunch and said, no, we're not doing that.

John Marcus:

And lunch was over soon after that.

John Marcus:

Yeah, because I thought they were hurting the field because it was dumbed down by people that felt like America can't get certain things.

John Marcus:

And, you know, it's typical.

John Marcus:

There are networks where they respect the intelligence audience, but I.

John Marcus:

I sadly say this was not one of them.

:

Well, some of the.

:

I don't want to get off in the weeds.

:

We'll do that in after hours.

:

But one of the things I've noticed on the barbecue shows is they've become very much the same.

Leanne Whippen:

Repetitive.

:

They're very repetitive.

:

And, yeah, you see somebody in their trailer injecting their briskets or doing whatever, and I know it works for them.

:

That's fine.

:

But then they go to the next trailer and the next trailer, and it's the same thing.

:

And like you said, John, they're not really.

:

They're not really sharing cook techniques.

:

They're not really sharing any inside baseball, if you will.

:

It's just like, oh, yeah, I do this and I'm up at 4 in the morning and blah, blah, blah.

:

And, yeah, I find them kind of boring.

John Marcus:

It bores me to death.

John Marcus:

And what they're doing, it's like, you know, back in the day when the word was Xerox, which they don't use anymore because no one's Xeroxing.

John Marcus:

But if you get to the seventh or eighth copy of something, it just starts to look a little faded and worn, and you can't really read it.

John Marcus:

That's what happens.

John Marcus:

It's like, we're going to copy that original show, and let's face it, they all copy that original show.

John Marcus:

If you look at that very, very expensive Netflix barbecue show, there are a lot of elements of our show that are on it, and God bless them for doing what they're doing, and at least they're spending a lot of money in the production.

John Marcus:

But it feels like we know it all already.

John Marcus:

We know this, and there are ways to show it anew, which is what I would love to do next if I.

John Marcus:

If I did another one, is there are ways to, like, make the stakes higher, to have more fun with.

John Marcus:

With process and method and.

John Marcus:

And to learn things and to have certain experts on and.

John Marcus:

But I don't know where I'm gonna sell that one.

:

Yeah, that might.

:

That might be a little tough.

:

Yeah, it's.

:

It's a.

:

Well, as you know very well, and I know Leanne knows TV is a kind of a ruthless business at Times and all you, you know, to.

:

I think, to mimic what we're saying.

:

John, all you have to do is look at Hollywood and all the remakes they make of movies.

:

Nobody wants to write an original script.

:

That's the way I.

John Marcus:

Well, they want.

John Marcus:

They're out there.

John Marcus:

The scripts are.

John Marcus:

But nobody wants to fund it.

:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

Because they're afraid of the low, you know, low box office and go with what, you know.

John Marcus:

And by the way, we have to do that because we need to make the money to do the independent things.

John Marcus:

But.

John Marcus:

But they're not making the money as much anymore.

John Marcus:

So there.

John Marcus:

Now that independent side is really drying up.

:

Yes.

John Marcus:

It's rare to get to see something.

John Marcus:

It happens.

John Marcus:

I'm always hopeful.

John Marcus:

I'm always hopeful, but there's a lot of stuff out there that I just don't understand why they're making it.

John Marcus:

Yeah.

Leanne Whippen:

Are you seeing AI impeding on your creativity in the business you're in as far as writing?

John Marcus:

The answer to that is yes, and only because I think it's a dirty secret that it's out there.

John Marcus:

I mean, we went on strike for weeks and weeks because of AI and we're told we got some regulation as part of arc, our settlement, as part of our new contract.

John Marcus:

There is some regulation, but there's often no way to know it's being used.

John Marcus:

They may hire you as the original writer to go in and write a script, but they're going to put it through AI All AI does, it's hoovered up every script there is.

John Marcus:

I'm an AI.

Leanne Whippen:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

You know, the things I've written are an AI and they're going to just really, like, regurgitate it.

John Marcus:

It's like, listen, I like a good egg McMuffin as much as anybody, but I'm telling you, you eat the other McDonald's stuff and it feels like, wait a minute.

John Marcus:

This is all the same thing right between the bread.

John Marcus:

It feel.

John Marcus:

It's the same.

John Marcus:

And I think Steve Martin used to do a joke where it's like, well, you know, for McDonald's, they just have this big, like, you know, lever that they pull and the same thing comes out.

:

Yeah.

:

Better.

John Marcus:

But, yeah, no, I.

John Marcus:

I worry that we don't have an audience that objects to that.

John Marcus:

That's the problem.

:

Yes.

John Marcus:

Don't have an audience saying, like, no, no, no, no, don't put that on me.

John Marcus:

I don't want it.

John Marcus:

But they, you know, they're okay with it.

Leanne Whippen:

For some reason, they feel like they don't know.

John Marcus:

Very possible.

:

Very possible.

:

Hey, we Got to take another break.

:

We're going to come back and talk with John some more here on Barbecue Nation.

:

Stay with us.

Jeff:

Hey, everybody, it's jt.

Jeff:

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Jeff:

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Jeff:

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Jeff:

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Jeff:

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Jeff:

Hey, everybody, J.T.

Jeff:

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Jeff:

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Jeff:

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Jeff:

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Jeff:

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Jeff:

If you're really into cooking, I think you're really going to like them.

:

Welcome back to Barbecue Nation.

:

We'd like to thank Gorilla Grills, Heritage Steel, and Hammersaw knives there.

:

And we're talking with John Marcus today, the original wizard behind Barbecue Pit Masters.

John Marcus:

Also with Chris Lilly, if I can.

:

With Chris Lilly.

:

Yeah.

Leanne Whippen:

Chris Lilly.

:

I bet you I know something that.

:

That you don't about Chris.

John Marcus:

John, please.

John Marcus:

I'd love to hear it.

Leanne Whippen:

It's related to underwear, isn't it?

:

Yeah, it's related to underwear.

:

Oh, no.

John Marcus:

I want to be part of this, Jeff.

John Marcus:

Really?

Leanne Whippen:

Let's talk about it in after hours.

:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

But I'll tell you a great Chris thing, because, I mean, Chris is, to me, one of the senses of barbecue.

John Marcus:

True Zen masters of barbecue.

John Marcus:

And I once walked into.

John Marcus:

We were in a competition somewhere.

John Marcus:

I got.

John Marcus:

I had the opportunity to cook on his team with Don McLemore and Don's friend Bill.

John Marcus:

And these are great memories.

John Marcus:

Great memories.

John Marcus:

And Chris was standing alone in a tent with a brisket, and the brisket was just.

John Marcus:

Just him in the brisket in his small tent.

John Marcus:

The brisket was lying on a cutting board, and it was coming to room temperature, and he was just staring at it.

John Marcus:

And I didn't say anything.

John Marcus:

I just watched for a couple minutes, and then finally I said, what are you doing?

John Marcus:

And Chris said this in all seriousness.

John Marcus:

He said, I'm letting it talk to me.

:

Okay?

John Marcus:

It's telling me how it would like to be cooked.

John Marcus:

It's telling me the spots that'll finish first.

John Marcus:

It's telling me what kind of heat I should be using on it.

John Marcus:

And it's telling me how long it's going to need.

:

Are you sure you're shrinking?

Leanne Whippen:

I want one of those briskets.

John Marcus:

Yeah, you want a talking brisket?

Leanne Whippen:

I want a talking brisket.

:

Oh, man.

John Marcus:

I can't tell you what brand it was.

John Marcus:

I think it might have been a creek stone, but I think there are a few talking briskets out there.

:

Next time he's on the show, Leanne, we're going to have to bring that.

Leanne Whippen:

Inquire about the talking.

:

Yeah, talking.

John Marcus:

Well, he.

John Marcus:

Yeah, I think he'll.

John Marcus:

I think he'll remember that.

John Marcus:

I think he would, but I've had many great cooking experiences with.

John Marcus:

With.

John Marcus:

He's very generous as to what he knows.

John Marcus:

I have my Gedmaster because of Chris.

John Marcus:

Actually, I have a couple of them.

John Marcus:

Sometimes he'll call me and he'll say that I don't need one now, but there's one out there and I'll.

John Marcus:

And I'll go get it.

John Marcus:

You and I have one.

Leanne Whippen:

Gotta get the trailer too, though.

John Marcus:

Gotta get the trailer, too.

John Marcus:

The enclosed trailer, the one that closed trailer.

John Marcus:

It's all coming as one, huh?

Leanne Whippen:

Yeah.

Leanne Whippen:

It's got a three compartment sink and a hand sink and a refrigerator.

Leanne Whippen:

I mean, you got.

Leanne Whippen:

It's.

Leanne Whippen:

It's like the, the extras that you need.

John Marcus:

Absolutely.

John Marcus:

And is it sitting in Florida, you know, Jeff?

Leanne Whippen:

Oh, yeah, it's in my parking lot.

Leanne Whippen:

It's in my parking lot.

John Marcus:

It's in your parking lot.

:

Yep.

Leanne Whippen:

And you can also buy my Silverado.

John Marcus:

If you'd like that.

Leanne Whippen:

Toes it.

:

Oh, wow.

:

Okay.

:

Well, see, I, I think.

:

Let me interject something here.

:

See, John, I think he should get that trailer and then bring Leanne up and you two do a cook and film it either in Central park or Rock Center.

:

Central Park.

Leanne Whippen:

I'm sure they'd love that.

:

Times Square, whatever you could get it in.

:

And I think that would just be a hell of a deal.

Leanne Whippen:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

Oh, I'd love to.

John Marcus:

I cook with Leanne anywhere.

Leanne Whippen:

Yeah, I would cook with you anywhere as well.

:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

All right, well, we'll figure this out.

:

So anyway, yeah, it's all good.

:

I think that John, by the way.

John Marcus:

You know, we talk about these GED masters real quick.

Leanne Whippen:

Yeah, fantastic.

John Marcus:

They're amazing cookers.

John Marcus:

And they're.

John Marcus:

It's, it's.

John Marcus:

It's a wonderful story.

John Marcus:

The inventor and the creator of Gedmaster and why he did it and how he did it.

John Marcus:

Dennis.

Leanne Whippen:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

Who was a.

John Marcus:

Who was a paralegal or was in Kansas City.

John Marcus:

I think Dennis is.

John Marcus:

I know he's not Making them now.

John Marcus:

But he's right.

John Marcus:

He's out there.

John Marcus:

He sold the rights to make them to James Britt.

Leanne Whippen:

Yeah.

Leanne Whippen:

The ring of fire.

John Marcus:

He patented the ring of fire.

John Marcus:

He knew if he could do that, he might be able to sleep while making barbecue.

John Marcus:

Now everybody uses a version of the patented ring.

John Marcus:

If a lot of people figure out ways to adapt that to whatever, they're right.

John Marcus:

But.

John Marcus:

But, you know, anything that can give you an old fashioned taste is really interesting and a great way to go.

John Marcus:

And barbecue.

John Marcus:

And with that, I mean, you know, on the Gedmaster, it's the rendering fat falling on this hot baffle.

Leanne Whippen:

Yep.

John Marcus:

Which I think is black iron in most of them.

John Marcus:

I have a jed that it's black iron and heavy is all hell to deal with.

John Marcus:

And these things.

John Marcus:

These things are just accidents waiting to happen.

John Marcus:

But they know how they cook well.

John Marcus:

But I have one on a trailer, a small trailer.

John Marcus:

Not an enclosed trailer, but a small trailer that Dennis made the trailer as well.

John Marcus:

And I had to drive to North Carolina to pick it up.

John Marcus:

It was just, you know, there was a trucker, a very nice gentleman, who called me to let me know it was available.

John Marcus:

And then I sent him a check for it right away.

John Marcus:

And then he.

John Marcus:

The check arrived back in the mail, and he called me and said, when I thought of selling it, I started to cry.

:

Oh.

John Marcus:

And my girlfriend said, don't.

John Marcus:

I don't want you crying all over the place all the time.

John Marcus:

So keep it.

John Marcus:

So he kept it.

John Marcus:

And then a year later, he called me and said, I'm ready to let it go.

:

Did he let the girlfriend go too, or.

John Marcus:

I think the girlfriend stayed.

:

Okay.

John Marcus:

All right.

John Marcus:

I think so.

John Marcus:

She sounded very nice, actually.

John Marcus:

But.

John Marcus:

But why an orange trailer?

John Marcus:

Because that was not Dennis's paint job.

John Marcus:

That was the first owner, and it was an orange trailer because the guy that first bought it, he.

John Marcus:

His day job was painting Popeyes chicken franchises.

Leanne Whippen:

Oh, no kidding?

:

Really?

Leanne Whippen:

Popeyes orange.

John Marcus:

He used the Popeyes orange on the Jedi.

John Marcus:

On the.

John Marcus:

On the jet trailer trailer.

John Marcus:

I ain't gonna touch it.

John Marcus:

Yeah, Original.

:

After all your adventures to this point in your life, John, what barbecue, what do you think your greatest one is?

:

Is it pit masters?

:

Is it hall of fame?

:

Is it the people?

:

What is it?

John Marcus:

I'd have to say I think the greatest adventure was flying to Kuwait to cook for the troops.

John Marcus:

Yeah, that's got to be the greatest adventure of all.

John Marcus:

f Iraq during the drawdown in:

John Marcus:

In November:

John Marcus:

In two locations for a total of 5,200 soldiers and Marines.

John Marcus:

I'll never forget that.

John Marcus:

And very emotional thing to do.

John Marcus:

And a hundred of them in each location stayed up with us all night to do the food.

:

There you go.

Leanne Whippen:

Awesome.

:

There you go.

:

I've been over in that area.

:

It's not what you'd call a garden spot.

John Marcus:

No, not at all.

John Marcus:

Not at all.

John Marcus:

And it's like something sprung up in the middle of nowhere.

:

Right.

John Marcus:

You know, it's amazing what we're able, what we're capable of doing, you know, this country and, and those folks have to be fed every day.

John Marcus:

And this was the first time in a year that they had gotten a home cooked meal.

:

Yeah, those MREs get a little old.

:

Old.

:

Yeah.

:

That's a nice way to put it, Leanne.

:

They get a little old.

John Marcus:

Yeah, they do.

:

I was going to put some other adjectives in there.

John Marcus:

Even when you go to the mess hall and eat, you know, and it's amazing how they're able to feed all these people.

John Marcus:

But the mess hall where they're preparing the food is.

John Marcus:

It's.

John Marcus:

I think they have to work from frozen.

John Marcus:

They work from.

John Marcus:

Yeah, just, just the whole.

John Marcus:

Yeah.

John Marcus:

Herculean task.

John Marcus:

But we were cooking at Camp Buhring and the sun was coming up and it was 110 degrees at like 5:30 in the morning, and soldiers carrying their automatic weapons were walking on the horizon toward us because it was time to either help or to get to, you know, participate or even line up for the food.

John Marcus:

And.

John Marcus:

And that's what happened.

John Marcus:

And that, that's a site I'll never forget.

:

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

:

John, you're gonna stick around for after hours, for a few minutes, whatever you want, I'm here.

Leanne Whippen:

Okay, great.

:

All right.

Leanne Whippen:

Are you in Midtown right now?

John Marcus:

I'm in.

John Marcus:

I'm on West 72nd Street.

Leanne Whippen:

Okay.

:

See, I told you I could find you.

John Marcus:

Yeah, you can find me.

John Marcus:

Well, that's narrowing it down, Jeff, but you need a little more than that.

:

Well, that cuts it down by at least 3,000 miles from where I live.

:

So anyway, we're gonna get out of here.

:

Thank you, John Marcus, for being with us.

:

Definitely on the invite list, anytime, any place.

:

That's for sure.

:

And Leanne and I have got to go, but John is going to stick around for after hours.

:

So remember our motto here.

:

Turn it, don't burn it, go out, have some barbecue, cook it and have some fun.

:

Take care, everybody.

JT:

Barbecue Nation is produced by JTSD LLC Productions in association with Salem Media Group.

JT:

All rights reserve.

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About the Podcast

BBQ Nation
Podcast by JT and LeeAnn Whippen
Known as “The Cowboy Cook”, Jeff Tracy has fond memories of sitting at the dinner table with his family.
Changing this world, one recipe at a time Jeff intends to support urban suburban families that are looking for a way to connect at the dinner table. BBQ Nation is about bringing people together and building relationships that last” says Tracy. BBQ is fun cooking for everyone, not just pit masters or pro’s.

About your host

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Jeff Tracy

Radio host and TV personality. Host of BBQ Nation and Grilling at the Green radio shows and podcasts. Known as The Cowboy Cook on TV for over 25 years. Golf fanatic, history buff and family guy. 2 million + miles in the air with a sore backside.