Paul Holden - Willinghams Pitmaster - Encore
The episode features an engaging dialogue with Paul Holden, the esteemed pitmaster from Willingham's Barbecue in Georgia. A salient point of discussion revolves around Holden's experiences stepping into the prominent legacy of John Willingham, a revered figure in the barbecue community. Throughout the conversation, we explore the intricate techniques employed in competition barbecue, particularly focusing on the unique vertical cooking methods that define Willingham's style. Additionally, Holden shares insights into the challenges and triumphs of maintaining the revered traditions while fostering innovation within the craft. As we navigate this rich narrative, we also delve into the nuances of flavor profiles, seasoning development, and the vibrant culture surrounding competitive barbecue.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Painted Hills Natural Beef
- Willingham's
- Heritage Steel
- Pig Powder
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Transcript
It's time for Barbecue Nation with jt.
Speaker A:So fire up your grill, light the charcoal, and get your smoker cooking.
Speaker A:Now from the Turn It Go Burn it studios in Portland.
Speaker A:Here's jt.
Speaker A:This is an encore.
Speaker A:Hey, everybody.
Speaker A:Welcome to the nation.
Speaker A:That's Barbecue Nation.
Speaker A:I'm jt along with my co host, Leanne Whippen.
Speaker A:She's got a.
Speaker A:She's rolling around in the ashes today.
Speaker A:No, it's Ash Wednesday.
Speaker B:Ash Wednesday, yes.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker A:And we've got Camaro, Dave, Commander Chris, and Little Joe running around in the background here.
Speaker A:And we're coming to you from our Turn It Don't Burn it studios in Portland.
Speaker A:We'd like to thank the folks at Painted Hills Natural Beef Beef the way nature intended.
Speaker A:You can check them out online@painted hillsnatural beef.com.
Speaker A:well, if you've been around the barbecue, especially competition barbecue, for more than a couple of days, the name Willingham might mean something to you.
Speaker A:And so today, we're very honored to have the resident pitmaster from Willingham's down in Georgia, Paul Holden is with us.
Speaker A:Paul, welcome to the show.
Speaker C:Thanks for having me.
Speaker B:Yes, welcome.
Speaker A:What's it like to step in behind somebody like John Willingham?
Speaker A:And I know you get asked that question because I actually watched a couple of the other pods that you were on and stuff, and.
Speaker A:But that's got to be stepping into a big shadow.
Speaker C:Yeah, it is.
Speaker C:I think I had the blessing of being with John for a long time on the circuit and working with him closely in Memphis.
Speaker C:So stepping in, I knew the techniques, I knew the.
Speaker C:The rigor.
Speaker C:But, you know, it's still.
Speaker C:I'm not John.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I'm the.
Speaker C:I've got my own.
Speaker C:A little bit of my own style.
Speaker C:But bringing what we learned, it is always a challenge, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And it takes.
Speaker C:It takes a lot to pull the team together and continue that legacy on.
Speaker C:But you're right, stepping in, trying not to step.
Speaker C:Actually, I'm trying not to step into John's shoes.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I'm just trying to carry on that legacy and that legend.
Speaker C:And he had a great team around him.
Speaker C:You know, the whole 40 years,
Speaker A:I never met him.
Speaker A:I read about him.
Speaker A:Of course, I'm clear out here on the West Coast.
Speaker A:So, you know that we don't get a whole lot of competition barbecue out here.
Speaker A:But, you know, he does cast a big shadow in a very good way.
Speaker A:And one of the things you said, he basically never met somebody he didn't like or wouldn't work with.
Speaker C:That's great.
Speaker B:You Know, I fortunately met him years ago.
Speaker B:My dad, Jim Tabb, knew him very well and he used to go to the try on, you know, competition.
Speaker B:I remember his double decker butts and I remember him hanging his ribs vertically.
Speaker B:That was like his claim to fame.
Speaker B:Which is funny because they act like today in the barrel cooker is like that's a new method or something that's just been discovered when in fact John was doing it for years.
Speaker B:And I never really understood the whole thing because I was like, well, don't the bottom of the ribs burn because they're down by the heat.
Speaker B:And it was just, you know, it was all indirect, I guess, and you know, it worked out beautifully and he obviously won, you know, all of the prestigious contests along the way.
Speaker B:Do you still cook the ribs like that?
Speaker C:Yep, I do.
Speaker C:So, I mean, so I would say the vertical cooking.
Speaker C: So: Speaker C:So two, two things.
Speaker C:One, it is indirect.
Speaker C:Second, it rotates.
Speaker C:So we're hanging, it's vertical and it's rotating.
Speaker C:So we're always getting even distribution of the heat.
Speaker C:So our chance of burning the bottom of the ribs or getting them too dark doesn't happen.
Speaker C:I also hang our competition brisket.
Speaker B:Oh, that's fun.
Speaker B:So when, when you say it rotates, is that a manual rotation or do you have a gadget that does that?
Speaker C:I have a motor, a little, little gear motor that makes it nice.
Speaker C:And that's how we, that's how we do our pigs too, our whole hog.
Speaker C:They hang when they rotate.
Speaker A:Is it constantly moving?
Speaker C:Yeah, about 1 RPM, 2 RPMs, just a slow turn throughout the, the cooking cycle.
Speaker A:What was the reaction to, say, some other competitors.
Speaker A:Excuse me, when I understand the ribs.
Speaker A:But when you hang a brisket on there, that must have raised some eyebrows.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, no, it always gets, especially on the KCBS America that catches people attention.
Speaker C:And if you've seen the cookers, you know that they are a trait.
Speaker C:Johnny Tree likes to call them popcorn makers because they are, they do sort of have a very odd old timey appearance with the big wagon wheels.
Speaker C:But yeah, I get a lot of looks, a lot of, but it draws a lot of people in to have the conversation about, well, what are you doing, how are you cooking?
Speaker C:What are your techniques?
Speaker C:So I think, you know, knowing John, well, besides just the technique and something different, it also drew the crowd in to have conversations about barbecue.
Speaker C:So I think it helps engage what's going on.
Speaker C:But I do, I get a lot of questions on the circuit about how in the heck do you hang a brisket?
Speaker B:Yeah, I got another question on that.
Speaker B:So do you find the cooker is hotter up top than the bottom or is it pretty even about 5 degrees difference.
Speaker B:So do you hang the point like down and the point up?
Speaker B:Does that mean the pig goes head up?
Speaker B:You can go and you can look in there and he'll be looking you straight in the eye.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's our harness.
Speaker C:So basically it's a very early edition of the running pig heart harness.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker B:Huh.
Speaker C:That the shed uses but one that we created back probably in the early 80s and so that.
Speaker C:Yeah, it just goes up into the cavity and then we hook them on the carousel and he.
Speaker C:He hangs.
Speaker A:What do you.
Speaker A:Paul, how do you.
Speaker A:Let me step back from that.
Speaker A:There's got to be some drippings from no matter what you're cooking, whether it's the hog or a brisket or what have you.
Speaker A:Does.
Speaker A:Do you have flare ups in there?
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:So we are truly indirect.
Speaker C:So our heat source is off onto the side.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:So with the convection in the cooker it just pulls the heat up and out the smoke up and out.
Speaker C:And then I can put a little on the diagram.
Speaker C:It's called the Azure fan, but it's, you know, basically a basin at the bottom of the cooker.
Speaker C:That water in there and so I get a little moisture.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Sorry to interrupt.
Speaker B:Is it.
Speaker B:Is it wood driven, started with charcoal or do you gas start it or how does that work?
Speaker C:No gas.
Speaker C:So it's multi fuel.
Speaker C:So I can run pellets.
Speaker C:We started cooking with pellets back in probably 87.
Speaker C:But I can take the pellet feeder off and I can run lump, I can run stick.
Speaker C:So it's fully versatile for any of the major fuel sources.
Speaker B:Have you considered selling that type of cooker?
Speaker C:We did.
Speaker C:We've got 200 of them that are out that have been sold over the years.
Speaker C: I haven't produced one since: Speaker C:Actually.
Speaker C:The last one went up near Jeff there up in Boise, Idaho.
Speaker C:We shipped one up there.
Speaker C:But we have a stainless, stainless steel version is the last version we've been out.
Speaker C:But there's some black steel carbon steel ones that were done in the 80s and early 90s.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:So cool.
Speaker C:I just haven't.
Speaker C:We've got a manufacturer lined up.
Speaker C:I just wish the steel prices would just inch down and I probably, I could probably sell probably.
Speaker C:I probably got 26 people right now lined up to buy them.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:Well, depending on the price, you can put my name on the list here.
Speaker C:We go, they're fun.
Speaker C:They're fun.
Speaker A:I saw a picture of it, Paul, when you were doing one of the other shows, they, they whipped up a still image there and there was, there was also like a smokehouse right behind it in this image.
Speaker A:Or the cooker was kind of outside because it had a big circle around it.
Speaker A:And then right behind it there was like a little shed or something.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:And there I.
Speaker A:It went by so fast.
Speaker A:I'm sorry, I, I, No, I'm trying
Speaker C:to think of it.
Speaker C:I know most of the pictures by heart.
Speaker C:I'm trying to think of which one that may be.
Speaker C:I've got the.
Speaker C:Well, we've got a couple of versions of it.
Speaker C:I also have a once.
Speaker C:So you.
Speaker C:Leanne, you said you used to see the old white rig up.
Speaker C:So that cooker that.
Speaker C:So same thing, vertical cooking.
Speaker C:That one's triful as well.
Speaker C:That one will do pellet.
Speaker C:It will do it all pellets, lump or stick.
Speaker C:It'll do 225 slabs of rims in it at once.
Speaker C:Or 5.
Speaker C:Memphis MA.
Speaker C:Ballad Hog size.
Speaker C:Hog.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And I just had that one refurbished maybe four years ago.
Speaker C:I tore the old rig down, pulled the cooker out and had that one refurbished.
Speaker C:So that may have been in the back of that picture.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:There's some.
Speaker C:Because that's a, it's a big, it's a big old.
Speaker C:It's a big, big beast.
Speaker B:Do you still compete in Memphis in May?
Speaker C:This will be our 40th anniversary there this year.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker C:Making.
Speaker B:I was a finalist judge at Memphis in May and you know, it is truly, you know, the on site judging and the story and the cookers and the, the meat and the technique and da, da, da, da.
Speaker B:I would think that your cooker would probably help with the points.
Speaker C:I would say we very rarely don't get straight tens on our on site.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:So we've been in the shoulder division the last four years.
Speaker C:Three years.
Speaker C:Well, Covid.
Speaker C:Everybody got it.
Speaker C:So we've been in the shoulder.
Speaker C:So that's the only division we've never won this in that.
Speaker C:So we won ribs twice with the two grand championships back in the early 80s.
Speaker C:And then we won whole hog at Memphis in May in the 90s.
Speaker C:That one didn't get the GC.
Speaker C:So my, my goal is to this year at our 40th anniversary there, win shoulder.
Speaker C:So we'd have the trifecta.
Speaker C:And I don't think any other team has ever won all three categories.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker C:So we'll, we'll see.
Speaker C:I got, I've got quite a collection of other pit mashers that are coming in to be part of it.
Speaker C:And now we're excited.
Speaker A:It should be.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, good luck to you.
Speaker B:And if you need an extra extra,
Speaker C:everybody's always welcome.
Speaker C:Again, I think we carry on that tradition of John not knowing a stranger.
Speaker C:The family's still actively involved, so through the daughters and one of the son in laws is still actively involved with the team and the company.
Speaker C:So it's, you know, it hasn't gotten too far.
Speaker B:That's good.
Speaker A:We're talking to Paul Holden from Willingham's.
Speaker A:He's their head pitmaster there down in Georgia.
Speaker A:And we're going to take a break here on Barbecue Nation.
Speaker A:We're going to be back in just a couple minutes after these messages.
Speaker A:Please stay with us.
Speaker D:Ready for a new ride.
Speaker D:Choose from over a thousand vehicles at Weston Kia like a new Kia Sportage, Seoul Forte K4 Sorento Telluride or Carnival Gas, electric or hybrid.
Speaker D:Oregon's all time leader in Kia sales.
Speaker D: Everyone wins at Westin: Speaker D:Western KSL warn you kids that any other kid dealer in Oregon reported by Kikor.
Speaker A:Hey, everybody, it's Jeff here.
Speaker A:I want to tell you about something really cool.
Speaker A:Heritage steel cookware.
Speaker A:I just got mine.
Speaker A:I do a lot of cooking and it's got five ply construction.
Speaker A:Stay cool handles.
Speaker A:It's titanium strengthened.
Speaker A:It's got all the great stuff.
Speaker A:Just go to HeritageSteel us and find out more.
Speaker A:You'll love.
Speaker A:I guarantee it.
Speaker A:This is an encore.
Speaker A:Welcome back to Barbecue Nation here on USA Radio Networks.
Speaker A:I'm jt, of course, and Leanne Whippen.
Speaker A:And today we're talking with Paul Holden.
Speaker A:Before we get back to chatting with Paul, if you'd like to email us, it's really easy.
Speaker A:You can just Go Barbecue Nation, JT.com There's a little, you know, menu there that you can send us a message on.
Speaker A:You can also send us messages on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and 4,323other platforms that are out there.
Speaker A:So we're out there.
Speaker A:Anyway, let's get back.
Speaker A:Talking with Paul Holden from Willingham's.
Speaker A:What all does Willingham's do?
Speaker A:You got the competition, you've got, you've got seasonings, rubs and stuff.
Speaker A:What all do you guys do?
Speaker C:Yeah, so, well, competitions, obviously, as you mentioned, the line of seasoning and sauces have, you know, still actively producing and distributing, you know, not only in the retail market, but we've got a large following in the restaurant space, so we'll private label, bulk ship to them.
Speaker C:We do have a restaurant licensee out in California.
Speaker A:I saw that.
Speaker C:Yeah, Redondo Beach.
Speaker C:He actually got a great little store.
Speaker C:He met up with John, came to Memphis in May.
Speaker C: This would have been: Speaker C:When we first met Phil Wang, he was living in South Korea and we sold him a license to operate a Willingham restaurant in South Korea.
Speaker C:Shipped a cooker over there, figuring out how to ship all the seasonings across so he could run, you know, our techniques and our recipes.
Speaker C:And then he ended up moving to LA and just reopening the restaurant there.
Speaker C:So probably plans in the future to look at additional licensees that it was something John dabbled in, but I don't think he really took too seriously because it was a lot more work than I think he expected to.
Speaker C:How do you set up that distribution network?
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:I'm a little perplexed here because LA I actually looked at for a restaurant and it was a nightmare trying to get a smoker in there.
Speaker B:What is he using on site that he's able to get by and have this happen in la?
Speaker C:He's using our lamb turbo cooker.
Speaker C:So we have a commercial version of it that meets all the nsf.
Speaker C:And from.
Speaker C:I've not actually been in the restaurant.
Speaker C:I've seen pictures of it.
Speaker C:He's just got it under a.
Speaker C:A vent hood.
Speaker B:Is he using pellets then?
Speaker C:As far as I know, it does have a backup.
Speaker C:The commercial version does have a backup.
Speaker C:Propane or, or natural gas.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:But I'm 99 sure.
Speaker C:Who's using pellets at the restaurant?
Speaker B:Well, when I go to la, I'm gonna have to check that out.
Speaker C:Fernando Beach.
Speaker B:Okay, good to know.
Speaker A:You know, it's getting kind of tough.
Speaker A:I mean, I did a news report this morning.
Speaker A:I do a food news report every Thursday morning.
Speaker A:And talking about.
Speaker A:Of course we'.
Speaker A:Heard.
Speaker A:I don't want to get off in the weeds here, but they want gas stovetops in your home, you know, and, and there's.
Speaker A:Well, let me look.
Speaker C:I got my script right here.
Speaker A:There's 82 cities now that have banned it from new housing.
Speaker A:You know, building a new house.
Speaker A:You can't put it in there.
Speaker A:That's, that's.
Speaker A:Well, and the numbers they use are pretty, pretty tweaked.
Speaker A:As far as gas stovetops contribute 13% of the emissions that quote, unquote, lead to climate change.
Speaker A:But if you look at the Maybe that's true.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I don't know how they calculate that, but they, if you look at us versus the entire world, that's a very tiny, tiny percentage when you get the actual percentage.
Speaker B:So is that gonna, is that gon affect the restaurants then?
Speaker B:Because most restaurants use gas.
Speaker A:They're fighting it.
Speaker A:The restaurant associations are fighting it like crazy.
Speaker A:But we've got some, we don't talk politics much on this show but we've got some looney tune politicians out there that have no idea what goes on
Speaker C:in the real world.
Speaker A:In the real world and behind the kitchen door.
Speaker A:So I'll just leave it at that.
Speaker A:But it's pretty crazy and especially for people that are established, you know, like your, like your franchisee there in Redondo beach or any of the other ones,
Speaker B:you know, I would assume they would be grandfathered in, but anyway, you would hope so.
Speaker C:Just even do.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But talk about our whole, our whole lifestyle of barbecue.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Are we going to be in.
Speaker C:The next thing they come after is the pellets and that would be World
Speaker B:War iii, thank you very much.
Speaker C:I think.
Speaker C:So they're coming after the backyard, right?
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker A:Yeah, well stay away from that.
Speaker A:But yeah, yeah, you know, it's, it's kind of crazy and then I'll shut up about this.
Speaker A:But what, what are we known for here in the Pacific Northwest?
Speaker A:Our forests.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And, and we do have some hellacious forest fires, but that's a whole different subject.
Speaker A:But they're also now in some places in California and in Seattle and other ones.
Speaker A:You cannot put a fireplace, a wood burning fireplace in your home.
Speaker C:Colorado.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's nuts.
Speaker A:But anyway, I digress, I digress.
Speaker B:So I will change the subject matter.
Speaker B:I had the pleasure, I had the pleasure of meeting Lori at the national Barbecue Convention in Orlando this past week and you guys won first place in seafood.
Speaker B:We're having some other awards, so congratulations.
Speaker B:That's awesome.
Speaker C:Super exciting, super excited.
Speaker B:Kudos to you.
Speaker B:Is that a fairly new Rob or has that been around for a while?
Speaker C:It's new.
Speaker C:Well, I guess it's new but old.
Speaker C:It was the last seasoning that I was working on with John prior to his death.
Speaker C: So: Speaker C:It went into a box.
Speaker C: I found it in: Speaker C:His son in law and I were sitting around at a competition.
Speaker C:I went and bought A bunch of different proteins because we had nothing else better.
Speaker C:And I bought sea bass, and we put it on the sea bass, and it was phenomenal.
Speaker C:And we knew right then and there that that was going to be a seafood seasoning.
Speaker C:We came up with the name sitting there as well.
Speaker C:Lost at Sea.
Speaker C:So, you know, at least the way the story goes is, you know, lost Recipe of John's.
Speaker C:And I love it.
Speaker C:And we entered it last year in.
Speaker C:In the award of excellence.
Speaker C:It came in six, so we bumped from six to first on that.
Speaker C:So that was.
Speaker C:That's kind of a thrill, right?
Speaker C:It.
Speaker C:Not only is the name still relevant in the industry, we, you know, because it's sold pretty good over the last couple of years, but also it's a good recipe.
Speaker C:I love.
Speaker C:I made a few little tweaks to it at the end to get it into production, but 99 of it is what he and I were working on back, you know, a little over 10 years ago.
Speaker B:How would you describe the flavor profile?
Speaker C:It's a little.
Speaker C:It's sweet and savory.
Speaker A:We're gonna take.
Speaker A:We gotta take a break here on Barbecue Nation, but we will be back right after this with Paul Holden.
Speaker A:Don't go away.
Speaker A:Hey, everybody, it's JT And I have eaten.
Speaker A:If you've ever looked at me, you know that.
Speaker A:But I have eaten seafood all over the world, and I can tell you there's no place better than here in Oregon and our Dungeness crab.
Speaker A:If you want to learn more about Oregon Dungeness crab, just go to oregondungeness.org and find out how to cook it, how to catch it, where to buy it, and the sustainability of what they're doing there in the Oregon Crab Commission.
Speaker A:Check it out.
Speaker A:This is an encore.
Speaker A:Welcome back to Barbecue Nation.
Speaker A:I'm JT along with Ms. Leanne Whippen, hall of Famer there.
Speaker A:And again, we'd like to thank the folks at Painted Hills Natural Beef.
Speaker A:Beef the way nature intended, as one guy recently described it.
Speaker A:It's just stupid good.
Speaker A:And it is so that and also pig powder trim tabs, pig powder barbecue dry rub was developed by Leanne's dad, Jim Tab.
Speaker A:It won the best rub on the planet award, used by winning pit masters for over 30 years.
Speaker A:And it's now available online@pigpowder.com of course, I said Jim was Leanne's father.
Speaker A:And now Leanne and her sister are at the helm of pig powder, and it's continuing to turn in winning performances.
Speaker A:So get your pig powder today@pig powder.com.
Speaker A:good stuff.
Speaker B:It's true though.
Speaker B:I mean I have competitors buy it all the time.
Speaker B:They want to buy it in bigger quantities than I have access to.
Speaker B:But it is an all around and it actually won first place at the National Barbecue Awards of Excellence over the years as well.
Speaker B:So it's got a lot of accolades and yeah, I love it.
Speaker A:I, I'm sitting here today with two spice winners, put it that way.
Speaker A:And I'm impressed with that.
Speaker A:Are you still Paul, are you still working on new seasonings?
Speaker C:I do, I've got not only John's notebooks but I've got my own that I've been working on off on the side that you know, hopefully we'll get one more out this year.
Speaker C:I'm not, I'm not fast at this.
Speaker C:It's, it's a slow and painstaking process for me.
Speaker C:I think, you know, some of our, the newer ones that are out in the market, they seem to come out with a new seasoning about every week.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I think we'll come out with one more later this year.
Speaker C:And then I've got a sauce sort of monitorizing a few sauces for next year.
Speaker C:And that was another thing.
Speaker C:We cooked our mild tomato sauce down at the national barbecue association awards.
Speaker C:Third place in our tomato sauce and that is a 40 plus year old recipe still hitting it.
Speaker C:So you gotta love it.
Speaker B:Do you do catering too?
Speaker B:We don't.
Speaker C:We'll do non profit charity type catering but not official coconut.
Speaker C:I actually have a day job too besides barbecue, so.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker C:You know, we might in the future as normal work starts to wind down and might, might pick up some catering here and there.
Speaker C:But we'll, we generally do for charity nonprofits, we'll do different things for them.
Speaker B:So your company is primarily then the rubs, the sauces, Memphis and May, that's it, right?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And then we'll do about 14 KCBS competitions throughout the day.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker A:So I want to step back, Paul, and talk about your process when you're developing a rub or a sauce.
Speaker A:You, you touched on it, it seems like, and we've had, we, they're great people, we've had them on the show, but they seem to be able to knock out a, a rub or a blend just like boom.
Speaker A:And that's fine.
Speaker A:If they're happy with it, good luck, go do it.
Speaker A:But it seems in our conversation here you're talking about a longer process of trial and error and in developing the, the formula, so to speak.
Speaker A:And then it maybe even longer for your Testing.
Speaker A:Would you walk us through that?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I mean just even the loss at sea, that was probably two years just batting it back and forth with John and I on, on different proteins and non proteins alike.
Speaker C:Probably would have come to market a little bit sooner if it just hadn't gotten lost in a box.
Speaker C:But, but even on one of the ones I'm currently working on, I started that probably two years ago and just tweaking it enough and you know, using high quality ingredients, looking for things that are different and not again.
Speaker C:I love a lot of the products out there.
Speaker C:A lot of friends sure produce competitive, but a lot of them are so similar.
Speaker C:Yeah, right.
Speaker C:And I can go out to our, our competitors when we're on the KCBS circuit or Memphis, Atlanta, pretty much what everybody's using.
Speaker C:We still use our basics and you know, then other things that we're working on to try to blend in and it just, it just takes me time.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Get that right.
Speaker C:Is it too salty?
Speaker C:Is it too sweet, too savory?
Speaker C:Is there?
Speaker C:Does it brown?
Speaker C:You know, does it burn?
Speaker C:Does it finding that little distinct flavor that somebody's going to come back and say, what is in here?
Speaker C:I mean one of the ones I'm working on right now is black garlic.
Speaker C:You know, how many people know about black garlic?
Speaker C:But it's just a rich, really rich, deep flavor.
Speaker C:And to me it just takes a lot of time.
Speaker C:I think some of the, some of the ones that, some, some of the other producers out there, they're, they're co packers have a whole chemistry food chemist and I think they're, you know, they can whip out a whole variety of stuff and say you want to put your name on it.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Or here's a base.
Speaker C:How do you want to tweak it?
Speaker C:I just don't go that route.
Speaker C:I mean our, our co pack, a couple of our co packers have offered to say, well, we have this blend we've been thinking about.
Speaker C:Would you put your name on it?
Speaker C:I generally, I don't want to go that direction.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think, I think you're correct and we've talked about it on the show several times before.
Speaker A:But if you go to the grocery store or your barbecue store and you look at all the seasonings and there's tons of them.
Speaker A:Now so many of them are very similar in their flavor profiles and they're very dependent on pond, you know, paprika or brown sugar or whatever it is.
Speaker A:And there's no, it's not a slam against them.
Speaker A:It's just that I think when people are looking for unique flavor profiles, they don't want to have to search so hard either, you know, because you can pull this one off the shelf and this one on the shelf and this one off the shelf, and you go home and whether you're doing beef or pork or whatever, and you try it and you say there's not that much difference in the flavor.
Speaker A:You know, there's just not a big variety.
Speaker C:And, and, you know, this is.
Speaker C:When walking in John's shoes, as you mentioned at the beginning of the show, it's difficult because he was one of the seasonings there to enhance the natural flavor of the, of the protein or the product.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It's not there to overwhelm it.
Speaker C:So I think if you, you know, try and experiment with ours, it's.
Speaker C:It literally enhances what you're cooking.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Sauce.
Speaker C:We were taught, this kills me on the case to be a service, but I grew up with John.
Speaker C:We did not sauce anything.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:And that makes, it makes it tough when you're going into judging and.
Speaker C:But I do now, actually, before he passed, we got an agreement on how to do that.
Speaker C:But.
Speaker C:But yeah, I think it's, it's.
Speaker C:They're.
Speaker C:They're very similar in nature and, you know, we try to make it an enhancement.
Speaker C:The other thing is there's, you know, and it's tough.
Speaker C:I try to stay true to this as much as possible, but we don't advertise, right?
Speaker C:We don't, we don't market, we don't advertise.
Speaker C:We're all word of mouth.
Speaker C:We know our true market share.
Speaker C:It's slow and steady growth over 40 years.
Speaker C:We haven't had the big hockey stick, you know, with Facebook and social media and all that.
Speaker C:That's quasi advertising, I guess, sort of hopefully not upsetting John on that, but I think there's a lot of products get.
Speaker C:Just dropped out onto the market very rapidly that, you know, they're.
Speaker C:They're decent, they're good.
Speaker C:But are they still going to be here for a year?
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That's a really good question because I know people here locally that have done some blends, got it into a few stores in the area like that, and it stays for a while, and then you might go back, you know, a year, 18 months, whatever, and it's not there anymore.
Speaker A:And if you, you know, you by chance run into them and they say, ah, well, you know, we weren't really making any money with that, blah, blah, blah, whatever the reasoning.
Speaker A:And they might just be selling it out of the trunk of their car at events or something.
Speaker A:You don't know.
Speaker A:But it's.
Speaker A:And it's a tough business.
Speaker A:You know, getting shelf.
Speaker A:Shelf space is a tough deal.
Speaker C:It is.
Speaker C:It's really difficult.
Speaker C:And again, with the onset of all the, the TV shows and the different pit masters and their seasonings and their winnings, which is phenomenal.
Speaker C:It's been great for the sport.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I guess we call it the sport.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And really the lifestyle, it's.
Speaker C:I think it's been tremendous.
Speaker C:But it does, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a schlog out there trying to get the product on shelves.
Speaker C:We tend to try to go to smaller.
Speaker C:I'd rather be in a fireplace shop and grill shop than one of the big box retailers, because I feel like it's more personal.
Speaker C:They get to know the product and we get to know them.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:Again, I think that what you just said, you know, lends itself to people getting lost in flavor profiles.
Speaker A:And I'm talking about the consumer.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, you go to the big box stuff and, and, well, even our local Ace Hardware stores around here, they've put a big push on it and it's been great.
Speaker A:They've been very supportive of competition, barbecue and barbecue in general, and they did that.
Speaker A:But you go in there now and there's a whole row of stuff, you know, and it, it's, it's tough to select it if you are not familiar with it.
Speaker A:And the only way you're going to get familiar with it is to try it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So, yeah, I keep buying it.
Speaker C:We actually have two of our, two of our Memphis and May longtime team members that live in Portland.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker C:They fly down every year and with our team for 15 years now.
Speaker A:Oh, good.
Speaker A:Well, I'll have to track them down one of these days.
Speaker A:That's good for you.
Speaker A:What's.
Speaker A:We got about a minute before we go to break here.
Speaker A:Paul, what's it like when or what was it like?
Speaker A:I should say after John passed and you won your first grand championship or Memphis in May or whatever it was.
Speaker A:Was there a.
Speaker A:A real emotional moment with that, too?
Speaker C:You know, haven't been back on the GC stage at Memphis and Masoncy patch that.
Speaker C:That's this year.
Speaker C:I'm going to keep saying that, but we, you know, we had several calls over the last 10 years where we're back up on stage and very emotional and even the announcers like, it's great to hear the Willingham name up on the big stage here.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So it's, we've got a great following there and, you know, part of the legacy of that entire event.
Speaker A:Oh, good.
Speaker A:Hey, we're gonna take a break.
Speaker A:We're gonna be back, wrap up the show with Paul Holden, current and official pitmaster at Willingham's Barbecue down in Georgia right after this.
Speaker A:Don't go away.
Speaker D:Ready for a new ride?
Speaker D:Choose from over a thousand vehicles at Weston Kia.
Speaker D:Like a new Kia Sportage, Soul Forte, K4 Sorento, Telluride or Carnival Gas, electric or hybrid.
Speaker D:Oregon's all time leader in Kia sales.
Speaker D: Everyone Wins at Westin: Speaker D: January: Speaker D:Westin Kia sold more new Kia than any other Kia dealer, Oregon.
Speaker D:Reported by K COR.
Speaker C:Foreign.
Speaker A:Hey, everybody, J.T.
Speaker A:here.
Speaker A:I want to tell you about the Hammer Stahl knives.
Speaker A:Hammer Stall combines German steel with beautiful and functioning designs.
Speaker A:They're part of the Heritage Steel Group, which also does their pots and pans.
Speaker A:So go to heritagesteel us.
Speaker A:Check out the Hammer Stahl knives.
Speaker A:If you're really into cooking, I think you're really gonna like them.
Speaker A:This is an encore.
Speaker A:Welcome back to Barbecue Nation here on the USA Radio Networks.
Speaker A:We've got Chris Sussman coming up, the Barbecue Buddha.
Speaker A:Next year, next week, next year.
Speaker A:You might be back next year, too, I don't know.
Speaker A:But Chris has been on the show before.
Speaker A:He's a good interview, he's a lot of fun.
Speaker A:And today we're talking with Paul Holden, the Willingham competition team and seasoning.
Speaker A:He's their pit master down there.
Speaker A:How did you first get introduced to John?
Speaker C:1991.
Speaker C: ition ever was Memphis in May: Speaker C:I was cooking with my company team because Memphis and they a lot of early in the days was a lot of corporate teams there.
Speaker C:So we, we did that.
Speaker C:Met John the next year at Memphis in May and became friends with him.
Speaker C:If you fast forward a little bit, I switched companies and one of the gentlemen that worked for me went to church with John.
Speaker C:I became closer friends with John, hung out at the restaurant, started learning, started helping at Memphis in May in the late 90s, and then just stayed with him the whole time.
Speaker A:Oh, cool.
Speaker A:There's nothing like stepping into the deep end of the pool.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, kidding.
Speaker C:But I've done it, you know, I.
Speaker C:The good news is I'm not afraid to do anything that was asked.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So it was whether I was just manning the cookers and, and making sure the ribs didn't fall right or helping out just any way I could.
Speaker C:At Memphis and I mean sponging on it and then obviously at the restaurant, you know, learning from him.
Speaker C:And is this pit master at the
Speaker A:restaurant, what do you think the biggest thing you learned is?
Speaker C:Patience.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And the willingness to always learn.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:And try new things.
Speaker C:I think, you know, while John had a lot of techniques and, and things that he taught all of us, he always pushed us to keep learning.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So whether it's cooking on a different apparatus and I, I would say he's the true definition of a fit master.
Speaker C:And I'll, you know, keep striving for that is why we have our own line of cooker and our own cooking technique.
Speaker C:If I want to cook on a gravity or a stick burner or, you know, you just pick, pick and cooker, I should be able to do that by the things that he thought of.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:And hopefully so, yeah, so far so good.
Speaker A:What do you think was the steepest part of your learning curve as far as pick just, you know, was it ribs?
Speaker A:Was it brisket?
Speaker A:Especially on the vertical cooker because you maybe you had never seen one before except with John.
Speaker A:And when you went to do your, your first competition with one, did you go oh wow, yeah.
Speaker C:So we always had it on ribs and shoulder.
Speaker C:And now competition chicken is different than the chicken we would, we, I would tend to probably put more CBA type chicken being taught by John.
Speaker C:But brisket I think was the hardest thing to chase on that on the vertical cooking of, you know, do I do a flat, do I do a full, you know, point and flat tied together, which I don't separate them, they cook better.
Speaker C:And then trying to determine a, do I really want to wrap or do I not want to wrap?
Speaker C:And when I, when I do wrap, it's then I have to take it into horizontal because we do have a rack and it'll spoon.
Speaker C:Just figuring out that technique and hitting that.
Speaker C:It's worked out well.
Speaker C:We took a 182 years ago now at ACBS contest and everybody's like, ah, cooked it on a vertical cooker.
Speaker A:Rotating.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:On the whole time.
Speaker C:How does that work?
Speaker C:Right,
Speaker A:that's interesting.
Speaker A:That's, that's very interesting.
Speaker A:What do you do outside of barbecue?
Speaker C:Outside of barbecue?
Speaker C:I am the global chief information officer for a insurance company.
Speaker A:Is it based in Atlanta There we
Speaker C:are actually born out of COVID a little bit.
Speaker C:We're a complete virtual company.
Speaker C:Started in the uk When Covid came around, they started to build out the US team.
Speaker C:So it's for a four year, four year old company and probably then I think we're ranking about 38 and as 38, world's largest insurance carrier now at this point.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker C:So that's the.
Speaker C:That's the day job.
Speaker C:I've been in the insurance and claim states for my entire career.
Speaker A:So you're the guy they either love or hate.
Speaker C:Yeah, it depends on the day.
Speaker C:Right, Depends on the day.
Speaker C:But, you know, it's been an interesting industry in the technology side of it.
Speaker C:Just watching the progression of it over the last 30 years has been pretty fascinating.
Speaker A:I'm sure, I'm sure.
Speaker B:So on your rubs and sauces, sorry to go back to that, you know, there's so many choices.
Speaker B:What is your best selling rub and your best selling sauce?
Speaker C:So our best selling seasoning is the original mild.
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:We produce pretty close to a million pounds of that a year.
Speaker C:Whoa.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker C:The most popular sauce is the Sweet and Sassy, which is what?
Speaker C:One down.
Speaker C:Down at the National Barbecue Grilling Association.
Speaker C:So those two are probably hand in hand, the biggest.
Speaker C:And then everything else just sort of sits in the middle.
Speaker C:It sells, you know, we make, we make a good bit of it.
Speaker C:But yeah, the original mild.
Speaker C:I've got 400 cases coming in at the end of the week and I need to order another 400.
Speaker C:It'll be gone before I get that out the door.
Speaker C:So it's just constantly.
Speaker C:But it's one.
Speaker B:Wholesalers at retail, a little bit of both.
Speaker C:It's still produced in Memphis, our warehouses in Memphis.
Speaker C:Distributionism.
Speaker C:And then we've got really a lot of mom and pop shops throughout the country that buy, you know, 10 cases at a time.
Speaker C:And a few of the big online retailers that have been with us since almost the beginning.
Speaker A:Do you do Amazon or anything like that?
Speaker C:We don't.
Speaker C:We have two of the online retailers that we've restricted down that.
Speaker C:They're the only two that can do Amazon for us.
Speaker C:Because otherwise you've got, what, 52 people in the marketplace all competing at the same.
Speaker C:It doesn't make sense.
Speaker C:So we, we took the time to go into Amazon and lock it down to say only these two can sell our brand.
Speaker C:I don't want to get into it.
Speaker C:Right, right.
Speaker C:If they're good at it, let them do what they're good at.
Speaker C:I'll do what I'm good at.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:That's interesting.
Speaker A:That's a lot of.
Speaker A:When you say a million pounds, that's a lot of.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's a lot of seasoning.
Speaker B:It is a lot yeah, that's.
Speaker C:That's a blend of retail bottles and bulk.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:We've been talking with Paul Holden today, pitmaster for Willingham's Barbecue.
Speaker A:Paul's going to stick around a little bit for after hours.
Speaker A:But, Paul, how can people that have never.
Speaker A:Maybe they've never heard of Williams?
Speaker A:You know, we got a lot of new people across the country that listen to the show.
Speaker A:How can they find it?
Speaker A:Where can they get.
Speaker A:Get this stuff?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I think the easiest way to find a store, hit our website.
Speaker C:We have a store locator you can hit if you hit our website.
Speaker C:If you email, hit the contact form.
Speaker A:Oh, cool.
Speaker A:Very good.
Speaker A:Well, thank you for being with us today.
Speaker A:We'll check back with you after the end of the competition season and see how you've done.
Speaker A:But that's going to wrap it up for Leanne myself this week on Barbecue Nation.
Speaker A:But we will be back.
Speaker A:We're like a bad penny.
Speaker A:We keep showing up.
Speaker A:But thank you for listening.
Speaker A:After hours will be coming up on your platforms shortly.
Speaker A:Remember, our motto here.
Speaker A:Turn it, don't burn it.
Speaker A:Take care, everybody.
Speaker A:Barbecue Nation is produced by JTSD LLC Productions in association with Envision Networks and Salem Media Group.
Speaker A:All rights reserved.
Speaker A:It.
