Paul Holden - Willinghams Pitmaster - Afterhours Encore
The discourse herein elucidates the multifaceted nature of competitive barbecue as we engage with Mr. Paul Holden, a distinguished pitmaster from Willingham's Barbecue in Georgia. A salient point of our dialogue centers around the necessity for a paradigm shift in barbecue competitions, advocating for a greater emphasis on the intrinsic quality of smoked meats as opposed to the superficial allure of sauces. We delve into personal anecdotes, revealing Paul’s nostalgic recollections of culinary experiences, particularly his affinity for his mother’s turkey pot pie, which stands as a testament to familial bonds and the influence of heritage on culinary practices. Furthermore, our conversation traverses the landscape of competitive cooking, exploring the challenges faced by pitmasters and the evolution of barbecue culture. As we navigate these intricate topics, we invite our listeners to engage with the art of barbecue, underscoring the importance of experimentation and the joy of cooking in one's own backyard.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Painted Hills Natural Beef
- Willingham's
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Transcript
This is Barbecue Nation After Hours.
Speaker B:The conversation that took place after the show ended.
Speaker A:Hey, everybody, it's jt.
Speaker A:And this is a special version of Barbecue Nation.
Speaker A:It is brought to you in part by Painted Hills Natural Beef.
Speaker A:Beef you can be proud to serve your family and friends.
Speaker A:That's Painted Hills Natural Beef, everybody.
Speaker A:Welcome to After Hours here on Barbecue Nation with JT.
Speaker A:That be me.
Speaker A:And Ms. Leanne Whippen, hall of Famer.
Speaker A:That be her.
Speaker A:And Today we've got Mr. Paul Holden from Willingham's down in Georgia.
Speaker A:That be him in the middle screen up there.
Speaker A:So we'd like to thank you all for tuning in.
Speaker A:And this is where we do the lightning round, goofy question scenario for all of our tormented guests.
Speaker A:And so we'll start out with something easy for Paul today.
Speaker A:If you were on death row, what would your last meal be?
Speaker B:Death Row, probably my mother's turkey pot pie.
Speaker B:And it's not pot pie the way that we think about it in the South.
Speaker B:It's more of the German noodle type.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:I think that's.
Speaker A:I think you're the first person that we've asked that to that's ever come up with that one.
Speaker C:I like it.
Speaker A:Yeah, I do, too.
Speaker A:But first he mentioned his mom, which is very cool.
Speaker A:And then there's family recipe involved like that.
Speaker A:Usually they're like, well, I'd have a filet or I would have Chinese food or, you know, something.
Speaker A:But I think it's the first time we heard about mom.
Speaker A:That's a cool thing.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:Out of all the stuff you cook, Paul, especially during competition, what's your least favorite thing to cook?
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's a KCBS chicken.
Speaker B:That's still.
Speaker C:I concur.
Speaker B:Cba, and, you know ICBA down in Texas, the half chickens.
Speaker B:I could do that all day.
Speaker C:Yeah, that.
Speaker C:I totally agree with you.
Speaker B:That crazy stuff we do for Casey.
Speaker B:Hate it.
Speaker A:Okay, I'm.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:I'm nodding my head for you there, but I'm going.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:If you were declared Supreme Ruler of Barbecue by Leanne because she's a Hall of Famer for one week, what would you decree as Supreme Ruler of Barbecue?
Speaker B:Better support of the backyard teams.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker C:I like it.
Speaker B:And I. I don't lean.
Speaker B:You probably see that.
Speaker C:I said, I see a Hall of Fame trophy.
Speaker C:I. Yep.
Speaker B:That's the first.
Speaker B:The first inductees.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker C:That's with Rod Gray's rib rack there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I was gonna say it was cast from his ribs.
Speaker B:Sorry, I didn't mean to distract, but you mentioned.
Speaker C:Oh, no.
Speaker B:Yeah, there it is.
Speaker A:Didn't.
Speaker A:Did Stretch do that?
Speaker A:I can't remember.
Speaker C:Yeah, Stretch makes them.
Speaker A:Stretch makes them.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker A:Do you remember, Paul, do you remember the first thing you ever grilled or smoked or barbecued, you know?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Funny.
Speaker B:Chicken legs.
Speaker B:And it was grilled on the gas grill at home growing up.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Slop with all kinds of sauce and chard and.
Speaker B:But that smell still brings back phenomenal memories.
Speaker A:Did your folks barbecue when you were growing up?
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:I would say, by true definition, they grill.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Not.
Speaker B:Not a.
Speaker B:Not a thing we did to the whole.
Speaker B:Obviously, the competition side and the sort of competitiveness, we didn't really do that.
Speaker B:It was more just a typical backyard kind of lighter fluid on briquettes or the gas grill, sometimes.
Speaker A:Lighter fluid on the steak.
Speaker B:Yeah, that helped that, you know, that always helps.
Speaker B:I grew up in the kitchen, though, so my grandmother lived with us, and, you know, I was in the kitchen from age probably six, cooking whatever.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That's good.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:I really think that's how a lot of people learn.
Speaker C:I agree.
Speaker A:You know, you.
Speaker A:You had your dad.
Speaker A:You never told us if your mom was a good cook, Leanne.
Speaker C:My mom's an excellent cook, so my dad was always in charge of the proteins, and she did all the sides and dessert.
Speaker C:You know, she's an excellent cook to this day.
Speaker A:Well, maybe.
Speaker A:Maybe that all that rubbed off on you, and that's why, you know, what you do.
Speaker C:Well rounded as far as cooking.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I'm well rounded physically, but which brings me to this other question, Paul, Would you describe yourself as corn fed or grass fed?
Speaker B:Corn fed.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:That's always when we get somebody on the show that talks about beef and they talk about grass fed.
Speaker A:I grew up on a farm, and I even get chastised for this.
Speaker A:I said all cattle are grass fed.
Speaker A:They are, you know, corn feeding or feeding them out in the lot is, you know, a finishing process, but they all got to eat grass, so.
Speaker A:So I always found that a really kind of oxymoron statement myself.
Speaker B:Kind of.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Never thought of it that way.
Speaker A:Well, I think of weird stuff.
Speaker A:That's my job.
Speaker A:Where's the worst place that had the worst conditions that you had to cook?
Speaker B:There was a little contest up in southeastern Tennessee that was in basically the backyard of the prison, and the local prison up there was just off in the corner, and it was a complete mud hole.
Speaker B:So that was probably the worst Conditions that.
Speaker B:That we've had.
Speaker B:And
Speaker A:you probably was a good cook.
Speaker B:There's a good cook, though.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You probably drove those poor prisoners nuts with the smell coming over.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:All of us were joking about that going, well, who's coming over the fence?
Speaker A:Probably.
Speaker A:Do you give us a scale here?
Speaker A:How much barbecue do you normally eat every week?
Speaker B:It.
Speaker A:We get surprising answers on this.
Speaker A:Sometimes people say, well, I eat it every night.
Speaker A:And other people are like, maybe once a week, you know, whatever.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:If I were to average the whole year, it'd be once a week.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because I'm running a test cook or I'm running.
Speaker B:Trying to run new.
Speaker B:New formula on seasonings.
Speaker B:I have to cook something Right.
Speaker B:And trying to get it, but it's not.
Speaker B:But just eating it.
Speaker B:No, it Generally not.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's actually more common from pit masters than people would think.
Speaker C:I think it's very realistic.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But I.
Speaker B:But I will.
Speaker B:If I'm out traveling for work.
Speaker B:Work I do stop buying.
Speaker B:I'll try different.
Speaker B:Different places in different cities now.
Speaker B:I like to try to find the ones that are off the beaten path in the areas I probably shouldn't be going into.
Speaker B:But that's.
Speaker B:I like.
Speaker B:I like to try that just to see what.
Speaker B:What's up?
Speaker A:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker A:The shackier the better for me.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:If you could dine with a historical figure, who would it be and what would the menu be?
Speaker C:Figure alive or dead.
Speaker B:Yeah, alive or dead.
Speaker A:And you can't count John because you already know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, I. I didn't get to do it and I. I missed.
Speaker B:I missed the opportunity.
Speaker B:But, you know, John was friends with Muhammad Ali.
Speaker B:I mean, they were very, very, very good friends.
Speaker C:And I didn't know that.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:I've got all kinds of.
Speaker B:He adore our ribs and he obviously Muslim and doesn't eat pork.
Speaker B:But I would have loved to have spent time with him when he was over at John's house or, you know, at the restaurant in those years and coming in and out of Memphis.
Speaker B:So I. I think that would have just been fascinating to.
Speaker B:To hear that guy's experiences of life and wisdom.
Speaker A:Pretty.
Speaker A:When we're done with the show, I'll tell you a quick story about Muhammad Ali.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:It absolutely just floored me.
Speaker A:I was there and it just made me go, wow.
Speaker A:Anyway, if we put Paul's skills to music, what would the music.
Speaker B:So I grew up playing musical instruments.
Speaker B:Spent time doing drum and classical.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I'm a. I'm more of a. I like Classical music.
Speaker B:It's sort of the.
Speaker B:All that jazz as well.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Would be coming out of that.
Speaker B:But I've just got an appreciation for all music.
Speaker B:But I would say probably classical music.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:What's one thing you miss about your 20s?
Speaker B:Oh, my hair.
Speaker B:Oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker C:That's a very common answer.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's like my hair, my sanity.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, oddly enough, I started working when I was 16, full time, so.
Speaker B:And then college.
Speaker B:I worked full time, went to school full time, then got into barbecue.
Speaker B:Full.
Speaker B:You know, my other.
Speaker B:Full time.
Speaker B:So I think I just missed my corny ball together.
Speaker B:Yeah, I was busy.
Speaker A:I just missed getting up and having your body all go in the same direction as soon as you get up.
Speaker A:Not having to wait 20 minutes for everything to catch up, catch up and get synchronized and.
Speaker B:I hear you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I have a question.
Speaker C:What's your favorite barbecue restaurant in Atlanta?
Speaker B:Geez, I don't.
Speaker B:Was it 441 up in Canton?
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker B:He's up near Papa's new barbecue's new seafood place up there.
Speaker B:It's good.
Speaker B:I haven't really ventured out too much in Atlanta in the years we've been here.
Speaker B:Memphis, it would be A and R barbecue that nobody ever goes there.
Speaker B:But they've got some of the best sauce and pulled pork that I've had.
Speaker C:Good to know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What's the biggest change, if anything, that you think should be or possibly be made to competition barbecue?
Speaker B:We got to figure out how to get away from it being a sauce contest.
Speaker B:The sauce.
Speaker B:It's supposed to be a smoked meat contest.
Speaker B:Yeah, Right.
Speaker B:And it really does feel like we just zero in on how many layers of seasoning and how many layers of sauce gets put on it.
Speaker B:And which is the shiniest versus what was the technique of.
Speaker B:Is that a good barbecue product?
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker A:No, I get it.
Speaker A:Sweatshirts or formal wear?
Speaker B:Sweatshirts now.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Being in insurance, being in the insurance industry, I'm used to wearing a suit all the time.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Working from home for two years.
Speaker B:Sweatshirts is fine.
Speaker A:If you could work with one of your barbecue heroes, sans John, who would it be?
Speaker B:Well, I would have loved to spend more time with Mike Mills.
Speaker B:He and John were big, thick as thieves, as Mike's daughter likes to say.
Speaker B:But I think Mike was a pretty fascinating guy.
Speaker B:And that whole.
Speaker B:And really anybody in that era, they came to the competitions with, well, I got my bags of seasoning.
Speaker B:I got my.
Speaker B:You know, they were creating right there.
Speaker B:They weren't going to the store and picking out 52 seasonings and socks.
Speaker B:They were the real pioneers.
Speaker B:And I think just spending time with anybody in that 78 to mid-80s time span would be fascinating.
Speaker A:Sure, absolutely.
Speaker A:What do you do or what would a fantasy day for Paul look like for activities?
Speaker A:You're away from barbecue, you're away from the insurance business.
Speaker A:You got the whole day to yourself, nobody bugging you.
Speaker A:And in my life that's a truly a fantasy day.
Speaker A:So what would you do if anything?
Speaker B:You know, it's funny, it's.
Speaker B:It's my days that I get that are I'm on my tractor across, you know, bush hogging the pasture.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Nobody can bother me.
Speaker B:The phones can't get.
Speaker B:Got a lot of time thinking.
Speaker B:But I mean, just for full relaxation.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, to me it's, it's hitting it.
Speaker B:It's hitting a city and, and just eating my way around and enjoying the.
Speaker B:And I've got.
Speaker B:I've been fortunate enough to travel all over the world for work.
Speaker B:So you know, I try to stop in the city and say, okay, I'm in Munich, spend a day and I would go eat at different places, even if it's just little, little things.
Speaker B:So to me that would be a great day just to keep my way around and see the site, but absolutely.
Speaker B:And not the touristy stuff.
Speaker B:I want to go where the locals go.
Speaker A:Yep, yep.
Speaker A:Well, that way you can have that double martini and nobody cares.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Two last questions.
Speaker A:One, what do you want to do when you retire, if you ever retire?
Speaker A:And two, if you could deliver a message to people listening to this show, what would that message be?
Speaker B:Okay, so when I retire, if I retire, I think my retirement is willing.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So if over the next several years get to the point that the insurance corporate job winds out, then, you know, focus on really propelling Willingham to the next 40 years.
Speaker B:Make it to where my legacy then gets passed on to somebody else.
Speaker B:Either could be back to a Willingham grand grandchildren or you know, wherever it might go.
Speaker B:So I think that's actually my retirement plan and you know, something that everybody should know or follow.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I think if we're, you know, specifically around barbecue, it's.
Speaker B:Don't be, don't be intimidated by what we see on tv.
Speaker B:What you see in the professional pit masters on the circuit.
Speaker B:Try it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Do a backyard cook.
Speaker B:Do the sca.
Speaker B:Do something and give it a shot.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And you don't have to have the biggest trail.
Speaker B:You don't have to have the most expensive pit.
Speaker B:You know, many of pitmasters been out there with just, you know, a Weber Smoky Mountain and, you know, whatever and just give it a shot.
Speaker B:Don't be intimidated by all the nonsense that we do up on the, you know, the, the, you know, the master series.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Paul Holden, pitmaster for Willingham's Barbecue.
Speaker A:Happy birthday again.
Speaker C:Happy birthday.
Speaker A:I hope you have a rip roaring time tonight.
Speaker B:Loading the trailer to leave for contest.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:Well, maybe somebody will, you know, bake you a small birthday cupcake in their smoker while you're at the contest or something.
Speaker B:That'd be all right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But we do thank you for spending the time with us.
Speaker A:It's been a great story and I'm glad we could bring it to our listeners.
Speaker A:Thanks, Paul.
Speaker B:For sure.
Speaker B:Thank you, Paul.
Speaker A:You bet.
Speaker A:We'll be back next week.
Speaker A:That'd be Leanne and myself with another edition of After Hours and the regular show, Barbecue Nation.
Speaker A:Till then, remember our motto, turn it, don't burn it.
Speaker A:Take care, everybody.
