Steven Raichlen, Author, journalist, lecturer, and tv host - Encore
This episode delves into the fundamentals of barbecuing, emphasizing the necessity for both novice and seasoned grillers to revisit the basics of this culinary art. We engage in a profound discussion with the esteemed Steven Reichlan, who has profoundly influenced the barbecue landscape through his extensive writings and teachings. Central to our discourse is the importance of understanding fundamental techniques, such as fire management and the various cooking methods applicable to different cuts of meat. We explore the nuances of brisket preparation, elucidating the intricacies involved in achieving the perfect balance of flavor and texture. Furthermore, we address common misconceptions surrounding barbecue practices, aiming to equip our audience with the knowledge requisite for mastery in the grilling domain.
Links referenced in this episode:
- paintedhillsbeef.com
- heritagesteel.us
- oregondungeness.org
- pigpowder.com
- barbecuebible.com
- bbqnationjt.com
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Painter Hills Natural Beef
- Pig Powder
- Heritage Steel
- Hammerstahl
- American Royal
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Transcript
It's time for Barbecue Nation with jt.
Speaker A:So fire up your grill, light the charcoal, and get your smoker cooking.
Speaker A:Now from the Turnito Burnett studios in Portland, here's jt.
Speaker B:Hey, everybody.
Speaker B:Welcome to the nation.
Speaker B:That's Barbecue Nation.
Speaker B:I'm Jeff Tracy, along with my co host, Leanne Whippen.
Speaker B:And we'd like to thank you for being with us today.
Speaker B:Leanne's coming to you from Florida.
Speaker B:I'm in Oregon.
Speaker B:And we'd like to thank the folks at Painter Hills Natural Beef.
Speaker B:Beef the way nature intended.
Speaker B:Well, we've got one of the great ones today on the show, Steven Reichland.
Speaker B:Steven's been on the show a number of times over the years, and it's always a pleasure to have him.
Speaker B:In fact, I met Stephen a long time ago when I started this show, and he actually came to the radio station in Portland, and I still have pictures of that, too, by the way.
Speaker B:So welcome.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker B:So, Stephen, I wanted to, for those who don't know, and I don't know where you've been living if you don't know anything about Stephen, but really quickly, he's written 32 books, he's got a couple of television shows.
Speaker B:He's traveled the world.
Speaker B:He's a researcher.
Speaker B:He went to college here in my town, Portland, Oregon.
Speaker B:And he's very acclaimed with his work in front of behind and in the cameras and in the kitchen there.
Speaker B:So there you go.
Speaker B:That's the bio.
Speaker B:Real quick.
Speaker B:I wanted to talk.
Speaker B:Leanne and I have kind of been doing a little retrospective on the show the last couple weeks, and unfortunately, you don't get out of that either.
Speaker B:I wanted to talk a little bit about the going perhaps back to the basics for people.
Speaker B:The barbecue world has exploded, a lot of it, thanks to you and all your work.
Speaker B:And we had Meathead on a couple weeks ago.
Speaker B:A lot of his work has influenced people, but now there's a ton of shows.
Speaker B:There's a ton of radio shows and podcasts and television shows and all that.
Speaker B:But sometimes I question whether we overlook the very beginning steps for people that not everybody came into this barbecue world at the same time.
Speaker B:And you've written extensively about the.
Speaker B:The basics, up to the very finesse work, if you will.
Speaker B:I just wanted to get your take on that.
Speaker C:Well, you know, every year there's a new generation of grillers.
Speaker C: ecue Bible, which came out in: Speaker C: isteners weren't even born in: Speaker C:And so we all do need to learn about the basics of barbecuing and grilling, starting with how to build a fire.
Speaker C:Now, when I started in the business, the chimney starter was barely deficient.
Speaker C:Today, everybody knows to use a chimney charter for lighting charcoal.
Speaker C:Pellet grills were.
Speaker C:I think there was only one pellet grill manufacturer.
Speaker C:I mean, today that category has proliferated.
Speaker C:Multi fuel grills have proliferated.
Speaker C:Grilling over wood.
Speaker C:I mean, you know, back when I started, I think it was about 75% of Americans cook on gas.
Speaker C:When I started cooking, grilling was something you did on the weekends or special occasions.
Speaker C:Now, many of us have outdoor kitchens and we grill five nights a week.
Speaker C:So absolutely.
Speaker C:There has been a revelation.
Speaker C:Revolution and a revelation.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:For me, the, you know, it all begins with, I guess it boils down to learn how to control the fire, not how to control you.
Speaker C:And for me, if I were to break that down, you know, there are five methods of large diet cooking, okay?
Speaker C:There's direct grilling, what you do for a steak.
Speaker C:There is indirect grilling, what you do for a large piece of meat, like a whole chicken.
Speaker C:There is rotisserie grilling, cooking on fit a grill.
Speaker C:Great for prime rib, great for a duck.
Speaker C:There is smoking, which, of course, is the premier method for eating a brisket duck or cocoa spare ribs.
Speaker C:And finally, what I like to call caveman grilling.
Speaker C:One of my favorite methods, in effect, you get rid of the grill grate.
Speaker C:You cook your meat or vegetables directly on the glowing embers, and you get a surface charring and a smoke flavor that you just can't achieve with any of the other methods of grilling.
Speaker C:Not to mention the dramatic effect, you know, when you put a $75 porterhouse steak directly on the coals.
Speaker C:Eyes will pop, jaws will drop, People will think you're out of your mind.
Speaker C:But then when they tast it, wow.
Speaker B:Is that your favorite, the caveman?
Speaker C:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker C:If I had to pick one method, you know, I mean, look, I love them all.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:My philosophy is if something tastes great baked, fried, or sauteed, it probably tastes better grilled.
Speaker C:There you can grill just about everything from appetizers to desserts, side dishes, breakfast, lunch, dinner.
Speaker C:You know, I'm really about grilling 24 7.
Speaker B:When you started back with Barbecue Bible and then, and we've talked about this before, but how you evolved in the research you did.
Speaker B:But when you were writing that, did you have any idea, for example, about caveman grilling or, you know, we all make our own journey.
Speaker B:We all take our own steps.
Speaker B:And I'm just curious about when you were, like, writing barbecue Bible.
Speaker B:Did your mind just at times kind of race and say, you know, I bet you you can do this?
Speaker C:You know, Caveman grilling came later for me.
Speaker C: ly BBQ USA, which came out in: Speaker C:And I had a restaurant called Al Forno in Providence, Rhode island, where they called it Dirty Steak.
Speaker C:Now, do a little digging into history, and apparently our former president, Dwight D.
Speaker C:Eisenhower used to cook dirty steak on the patio at the White House, you know, again, to the amazement and dismay of his guests.
Speaker C:But if you think about it, you know, the method probably originated somewhere around 8.1.8 million years ago, when a distant human ancestor called Homo erectus became the first humanoid or human ancestor to start grilling.
Speaker C:And probably it was as simple as taking a slab of meat, throwing it right in the fire, roasting it in the fire and tasting it.
Speaker C:And, you know, man, that sure had to have tasted better than not eating raw meat like we did before that.
Speaker B:I'm just wondering if it was Mastodon or Pterodactyl.
Speaker B:I'm just kind of curious always about that stuff.
Speaker B:Just my.
Speaker C:Yeah, I'm sure it wasn't a pterodactyl, because that was a different.
Speaker C:That was a dinosaur, and we weren't around then.
Speaker C:But it could have been woolly mammoth.
Speaker C:Could have been, yeah, it could have been.
Speaker C:Or an Aroc.
Speaker C:You know, Arak was a prehistoric steamer.
Speaker C:I kind of like to think it was Aurora.
Speaker C:But how did this whole crazy thing begin?
Speaker C:Well, my mind, a forest fire swept through the woods.
Speaker C:It roasted, caught a couple unfortunate animals, roasted them on the hoof.
Speaker C:Early man came over, tasted this fuming carcass, and uttered the first grunt of gastronomic pleasure, and drilling was born.
Speaker B:Well, there.
Speaker D:I like that theory, actually.
Speaker D:I think it could be very true.
Speaker B:Yeah, I have no doubt that it's probably.
Speaker C:I mean, there's pretty.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I mean, the other theory, of course, is that early man harnessed the power of lava from a volcanic explosion.
Speaker C:And there's actually a very interesting novel, French novel, called Da, which is an imagined life of the first Homo erectus who discovers fire.
Speaker C:And he roasted meat, you know, using the heat of the lava flow.
Speaker C:So one of those two.
Speaker C:One of those two methods probably is how we got started grilling.
Speaker C:But I'm sure once we taste it, you know, I mean, cooked meat is also.
Speaker C:It's easier to chew.
Speaker C:It's easier to digest.
Speaker C:It tastes better.
Speaker C:So barbecue has went with us since the birth of humanity.
Speaker B:I'm kind of thinking though, when you were talking about managing your fire, Homo erectus learned pretty quickly that small contained fires were a little easier to manage than hot lava.
Speaker B:It's just a theory of mine, but I'm guessing there.
Speaker C:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker C:The funny thing though is it seems like, I mean, again, this is in the archaeological evidence that we learn to cook with fire way before we learn to make fire.
Speaker C:And there's a fabulous film, it's called the Quest for Fire and it's the most entertaining two hour movie you will ever see without a single word of dialogue in it.
Speaker C:And it follows the misadventures of a tri.
Speaker C:Homo erectus whose fire goes out and they have to travel around finding another sort of fire and use to rekindle their fire.
Speaker C:But as a species, we've been, our ancestors have been tool making for about 2 million years.
Speaker C:And think about it, you strike two pieces of flint together to make a knife or an ax and you get sparks.
Speaker C:Now if one of those pieces of rock is marcasite and the other is flint, you get a hot spark that creates a fire.
Speaker C:That's probably the first way we learned to make fire was striking two stones together.
Speaker C:And then there follows, you know, the spindle method where you turn a spindle in a socket real fast.
Speaker C:That's a little harder than it looks.
Speaker C:You know, if you've ever watched one of those Survivor shows, it's, you know, get not, not as easy as you.
Speaker C:The lighter.
Speaker B:No, I understand.
Speaker B:I've actually tried it.
Speaker B:You know, Boy Scouts, Cub Scout stuff.
Speaker B:And you're right, it's a little harder than it looks.
Speaker B:Anyway, we are going to take a break.
Speaker B:We're going to be back with Steven Reichland here on Barbecue Nation.
Speaker B:Like I said, We've got two hall of Famers with us today.
Speaker B:Ms.
Speaker B:Whippen and Mr.
Speaker B:Reichland.
Speaker B:So we're going to be back and talk to them both in just a moment.
Speaker B:Stay with us.
Speaker E: he four open positions in the: Speaker E:So we'd like to acknowledge those folks.
Speaker E:Danielle Bennett from Florida, Rick Brown from Portland, Oregon, my hometown.
Speaker E:Steve Grady from North Carolina.
Speaker E:Andy Husbands from Andover, Mass.
Speaker E:David Close from Houston.
Speaker E:Ed Morin from Kansas City.
Speaker E:Philip McLeod from Hot Springs, Arkansas.
Speaker E:Roy Perez from Lockhart, Texas.
Speaker E:Malcolm Reed, who's been on the show a few times from Hernando, Mississippi, and Van Sykes from Alabama.
Speaker E:Congratulations to those folks.
Speaker E:There were 83 nominated barbecue enthusiasts, and those 10 I just listed made the cut for the four final spots.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker E:So good luck, everybody.
Speaker E: ll be announcing the class of: Speaker E:And the inductees will be recognized Nov.
Speaker E:2 during the 44th annual American Royal World Series of Barbecue in Kansas City, Kansas.
Speaker E:Congratulations and good luck.
Speaker F:Hey, everybody, it's Jeff here.
Speaker F:I want to tell you about something really cool.
Speaker F:Heritage steel cookware.
Speaker F:I just got mine.
Speaker F:I do a lot of cooking, and it's got five ply construction, stay cool handles.
Speaker F:It's titanium strengthened.
Speaker F:It's got all the great stuff.
Speaker F:Just go to HeritageSteel us and find out more.
Speaker F:You'll love it, Guarantee it.
Speaker B:Welcome back to Barbecue Nation.
Speaker B:I'm JT along with my radio wife, Leanne Whippen.
Speaker B:You can go to our website, Very Easy Barbecue Nation, JT.com you can reach out to us there and we'll answer any questions that.
Speaker B:Well, most questions, we'll answer them.
Speaker B:Put it that way anyway.
Speaker B:No, we'll.
Speaker B:We always respond to everybody there.
Speaker B:We're with Stephen Reichland today at fellow hall of Famer, and we've been talking about couple of subjects that we've talked about in the last week or so, and I just wanted to get Stephen's take on this.
Speaker B:What are some of the misconceptions?
Speaker B:This is really your, one of your first claims to fame, Stephen.
Speaker B:Misconceptions about barbecue or smoking a brisket?
Speaker B:You know, what I was, what I was saying at the top of the show was people start into barbecuing and grilling, whatever they're comfortable with.
Speaker B:One of the big things is when they can ever actually get a brisket off the smoker that is edible.
Speaker B:That's a big, that's a big milestone in people's lives for that.
Speaker B:But in, you know, in your books, you talk about the ten commandments of smoking and low and slow, so on and so forth.
Speaker B:And now we've got people that want to do it hot and fast.
Speaker B:So I just wanted to get your overview on the do's and don'ts, really, of doing a brisket.
Speaker B:And your take, like I said, on maybe there's some misconceptions out there that you've seen that you go, I wouldn't recommend that.
Speaker B:And maybe others that you would recommend?
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker C:It's funny because in my book, the Brisket Chronicles, I write that brisket is simultaneously the easiest and the hardest thing to cook.
Speaker C:And it's easy because it really requires only three ingredients of brisket, salt and pepper.
Speaker C:To that you might add wood smoke and time.
Speaker C:It's hard because unless you get the temperature right, you get the trim right, you get the wrap right, you get the timing right and the rest right, it very quickly devolves into a piece of meat that's as tough as shoe leather.
Speaker C:So for me, the secret to brisket is working low and slow, really, just taking your time with it, keeping your smoke temperature around 250 to 275 degrees, gradually bringing the brisket up to about 205 degrees.
Speaker C:That's when it's done.
Speaker C:Along the way, the temperature or internal temperature will rise and then it'll sort of plateau and it might even dip a little bit.
Speaker C:That's called the stall.
Speaker C:And that happens because as the juices evaporate from the surface of the meat, they actually cool the surface, the meat down.
Speaker C:It's just like on a hot day when you're sweating, the sweat cools you down.
Speaker C:But if you continue cooking through what they say, power through this stall, eventually you'll achieve that magic temperature of 205 degrees.
Speaker C:Then come two very important steps, and one is to wrap the brisket.
Speaker C:By the way, when you reach about 165 degrees, I like to wrap the brisket in butcher paper.
Speaker C:Why butcher paper?
Speaker C:First of all, because it breathes so unlike foil, which would seal in all of the steam and soften your bark, your crust, but your paper breathes.
Speaker C:And second of all, it helps keep the moisture in the brisket.
Speaker C:Once the brisket reaches that magic temperature, 205 degrees, you're really going to be tempted to eat it, right?
Speaker C:Because if you're cooking a whole packer brisket, you're probably 12 to 14 hours into the prac, into the process.
Speaker C:But take two extra hours, put it in an insulated cooler, let it rest, the meat will relax, the juices will redistribute, and then when you cut into your brisket, it will be amazing.
Speaker C:Now you, that's for a whole packer brisket you're using.
Speaker B:Let me jump in here for a second, Stephen.
Speaker B:When you talk about butcher paper, you're using the butcher paper that does not have the wax coating on the one side.
Speaker C:Not the plastic coating.
Speaker C:No, not, no, you do not want the plastic coating.
Speaker C:You want real old fashioned butcher paper.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:And, you know, by the way, you can do your smoking, you know, you can do your smoking in an offset narrow smoker, which is the sort of traditional Texas cooker.
Speaker C:You can do it in a water smoker, like the Weber Smoky Mountain.
Speaker C:You can do it in a pellet grill.
Speaker C:You know, you can try to do the pellet grill.
Speaker C:You can do it in a ceramic cooker.
Speaker C:Never really succeeded in doing a brisket on a gas grill.
Speaker C:I don't think you can get the temperature low enough, and you certainly can't get the smoke production strong enough in a gas grill.
Speaker C:So, you know, that's the long and short of it.
Speaker C:We talked about it for three minutes.
Speaker C:But I've been cooking briske my whole life.
Speaker C:You know, I still learn something every time I do it.
Speaker C:So it's.
Speaker C:It's a long apprenticeship.
Speaker B:One of the things you spoke of, and I know Leanne has talked about this on the show multiple times, is when you're talking the trim, when you get a.
Speaker B:When you get a whole packer and it's vacuum packed from the grocery or wherever you get yours, there's a lot of fat on it.
Speaker B:There's sometimes there's errant cuts on the surface from the butchers or the, you know, whoever.
Speaker B:Whoever put that in the bag, so to speak.
Speaker B:How much do you trim off a brisket?
Speaker C:Normally I trim the fat down to between a half and a quarter of an inch.
Speaker C:You don't want to trim it too much because that melting fat is going to keep your brisket more as salt cooks.
Speaker C:But I think a safe rule of thumb, I mean, for me, it's my baby finger.
Speaker C:That's about how.
Speaker C:How much fat I leave on.
Speaker C:I wanted to address another issue.
Speaker C:You mentioned the hot and fast method, which is, you know, captured a lot of eyeballs recently.
Speaker C:And when I wrote the Brisket Chronicles, we actually did test out the hot and fast method.
Speaker C:We found that it produced a good brisket, but not a great brisket.
Speaker C:So I would really recommend taking your time and doing it the most slow way.
Speaker C:The other thing is that when you're buying your brisket, you know, packer brisket's actually two muscles.
Speaker C:Right there's the point, and the flat.
Speaker C:Often at the supermarket, what you find is only the flat, which is the lean part of the brisket.
Speaker C:Now, I have a different way to smoke that.
Speaker C:I do that in a foiled pan.
Speaker C:I drape bacon over the top of it.
Speaker C:I smoke it, smoke it fat side.
Speaker C:Let me see.
Speaker C:I start it fat side down with bacon.
Speaker C:Over top of it for an hour or so, a couple hours, and the bacon's crisp.
Speaker C:Take the bacon off and eat it, turn it over, recover it with bacon, still cooking it in the foil pan.
Speaker C:The foil pan protects the meat on the bottom.
Speaker C:You know, it shields it from the heat.
Speaker C:And then you got a pool of bacon fat at the bottom, which helps keep the brisket moist during cooking.
Speaker C:Cooking time for a brisket flat obviously is shorter.
Speaker C:It won't be quite as luscious as a brisket point or a whole packer brisket.
Speaker C:But, you know, it brings us to a very important point, which is barbecuing and grilling may seem simple, and in effect, it really is.
Speaker C:It's just about putting meat to fire.
Speaker C:But there's so many little subtleties depending on the cut, the level of fat, the kind of fuel you're using, the wood you're using, the weather that particular day, the altitude at which you're cooking, which is really what makes barbecue art and science.
Speaker D:I have a question for you.
Speaker D:When you cook a whole brisket, because there's a big debate on this, do you cook it fat side up or fat side down?
Speaker C:Always fat side up, because I want the melting fat to.
Speaker D:Basically, I'm that way.
Speaker D:And I get slammed for saying that.
Speaker D:And I, I agree.
Speaker D:I, I just.
Speaker D:It makes sense.
Speaker C:Don't you find that there are a lot of arguments for the sake of arguments?
Speaker C:You know, there's a lot of outrageous statements in search of a real story behind them.
Speaker C:Yeah, you know what?
Speaker C:Aaron Franklin cooks fat to side up.
Speaker C:And, you know, you cook fat side up.
Speaker C:Need I say more?
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:We're going to take a break.
Speaker B:We're going to be back with Steven Reichland, Leanne, and myself on Barbecue Nation right after this.
Speaker B:Please stay with us.
Speaker F:Hey, everybody, it's JT And I have eaten.
Speaker F:If you've ever looked at me, you know that.
Speaker F:But I have eaten seafood all over the world, and I can tell you there's no place better than here in Oregon and our Dungeness crab.
Speaker F:If you want to learn more about Oregon Dungeness crab, just go to oregondungeness.org and find out how to cook it, how to catch it, where to buy it, and the sustainability of what they're doing there in the Oregon Crab commission.
Speaker F:Check it out.
Speaker B:Welcome back to the the Nation.
Speaker B:I'm Jeff Tracy along with Leanne Whippen and Steven Reichland.
Speaker B:With us is with us today.
Speaker B:Again, we'd like to thank the folks at Panerdale's Natural Beef.
Speaker B:Beef the way nature intended.
Speaker B:And also pig powder.
Speaker B:That's Ms.
Speaker B:Whippen's baby right there.
Speaker B:Well, one of them it is.
Speaker D:And I don't know who can see, but behind me is what I did last week, a pork brisket.
Speaker D:And it's very much like what we talked about, a beef brisket.
Speaker D:It had to go through the wrapping and resting process in order for it make it tender.
Speaker D:But I did put pig powder on it and it was out of this world.
Speaker D:So Pigpowder.com is a site and now it is available on Amazon.
Speaker B:Well, there you go.
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Speaker B:And she'll autograph the bottle for you.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:We're talking with Stephen Reichland today, and we're kind of going over some basics.
Speaker B:And I actually think it's really good in my book to.
Speaker B:To revisit these every once in a while, because we can.
Speaker B:On this show, we can.
Speaker B:We talk to a lot of pit masters and, and authors and the whole gambit here, and sometimes the.
Speaker B:We can get off in the weeds for people.
Speaker B:But I.
Speaker B:That's why I said I think it's good to go back and, and talk about the basics.
Speaker B:And so the next one topic, Stephen, I wanted to talk about was ribs.
Speaker B:I actually wrote here, ribs.
Speaker B:To mop or not to mop, that is the question.
Speaker B:Kind of little Shakespearean barbecue there.
Speaker B:But the point is, there's a pretty basic way to do ribs that I won't say is 100% foolproof, because you don't know about the fire or the cook themselves or what have you.
Speaker B:But I have found in my work over the years that you kind of stick to that basic and you're going to be fine.
Speaker B:Your thoughts?
Speaker C:Well, the idea of mopping is you put an extra layer of flavor and moistness on the ribs.
Speaker C:And I mop sometimes, but other times I'm just as likely to spray.
Speaker C:I might put vinegar or wine or coffee and a spray bottle and spray the ribs.
Speaker C:I think, you know, if it works.
Speaker C:I mean, I always say to people, if it works for you, you're doing it right.
Speaker C:I would like to point out with regards to ribs that they're kind of two basic methods of cooking ribs, and one is the low and slow smoking, which I use for spare ribs.
Speaker C:But when I'm cooking baby backs, I actually use indirect grilling, which is down at a higher temperature.
Speaker C:About 300 or 325 as opposed to 250.
Speaker C:And I do that, first of all, because you get to eat faster, always important.
Speaker C:Second of all, what you get, you get a little more chew to the ribs, and it's more kind of about biting into meat, almost like you'd bite into a pork chop or steak.
Speaker C:And I like that texture as opposed to the traditional low and slow smoking, which gives you a softer, you know, more barbecued bread.
Speaker C:One is not better than the other, necessarily.
Speaker B:They're just different when, when you hear people say, I did these ribs and they just fell off the bone, that always on it.
Speaker B:For me personally, that makes me cringe a little bit, because why are you cooking ribs if you wanted to fall off the bone?
Speaker B:I, I, there's a bit of a dichotomy there, I guess, for me and.
Speaker D:Leanne, you know, it's subjective, you know, and you know how that thing all started.
Speaker D:What is it?
Speaker D:Applebee's or whatever.
Speaker D:I, I, it's a misconception, in my opinion.
Speaker D:I, I prefer they sometimes get mushy or they get dry when it gets to that point.
Speaker D:But I, I don't know, it's a big misconception, I think, and it's subjective.
Speaker C:Well, you know, I always say that's why God gave you teeth.
Speaker C:You know, a rib should be tender, but it should have a little chew to it.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:My grandfather used to say, you know, you know, some people like to kiss cows.
Speaker C:It's, it's just, however, whatever you like.
Speaker C:But, but if you, if you're at my barbecue university, you're going to get a rib that has a little shoe, too.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:I, I like that.
Speaker B:And you know, again, we've seen a lot.
Speaker B:I mean, all you have to do is look at social media every day.
Speaker B:And there's, first of all, there's 10, 000 briskets posted every day out there, which is fine, but sometimes I like to go cook something else.
Speaker B:Would you just try something else?
Speaker B:But then the other on ribs, you know, you've got people that are pulling them and wrapping them.
Speaker B:You've got people that are hanging them in a barrel, which is fine.
Speaker B:I, I do that.
Speaker B:I've got one of those barrels, I've got like, you guys, I've got a multiple things of cookers that I can utilize, but sometimes I think that people have gone back to like my mother did, boiled them first.
Speaker B:Now, I know there's some, there's some cultures around the world that do that.
Speaker B:If you Will, I just can't bring myself to do that.
Speaker B:Just can't.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker B:That's just me.
Speaker C:Me neither.
Speaker C:But, you know, for every rule, there's an exception.
Speaker C:I remember when I was writing Planet Barbecue, and I was in Bali, Indonesia, and went to a place called Nuri's, and it was a very popular quote, unquote grill joint.
Speaker C:And her ribs, she boiled them first, and they were boiled with lemongrass and mackerel, lime leaves and coriander and, you know, all kinds of salt these days and spices.
Speaker C:And then they were direct grilled.
Speaker C:Once they had been boiled and direct grilled with kind of a sweet soy coriander glaze, they were absolutely delicious.
Speaker C:So, you know, many ways to.
Speaker C:To get to deliciousness.
Speaker B:Well, that's true, that's true.
Speaker B:But I just.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:But I.
Speaker C:But I think if you were ever joined, the three of us at our homes, you would never get boiled ribs.
Speaker B:That is true.
Speaker B:That is true.
Speaker B:I just have this vision of this big pot on my mom's stove.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker E:And.
Speaker B:And this.
Speaker B:The steam coming out and stuff.
Speaker B:And in the water, you'd look in it.
Speaker B:It didn't look very appetizing in that lot of stuff in there.
Speaker B:I'll just put it that way.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And it didn't really do it.
Speaker B:Is there something you can tell people that if they're working with ribs, of course, you don't want to, you know, pull the.
Speaker B:The skin or the filament off the back.
Speaker B:That's easy to do.
Speaker B:Some people, I've said on this show that if.
Speaker B:For some physical limitation, if they can't do that for whatever reason, I've suggested that they actually, excuse me.
Speaker B:Score the ribbon on the back.
Speaker B:If they can't manage to pull that off, it's not the best way to do it.
Speaker B:But it does give them some relief there.
Speaker B:And I wanted to get your.
Speaker C:You know, I always recommend skinning the.
Speaker C:Skinning the ribs, but I've had great ribs at many barbecue place that were not skinned simply because they do so much volume, they don't have time to skin them.
Speaker C:And they're delicious.
Speaker C:You know, the idea of taking the skin off is inside of the skin impedes a little bit of the absorption of the smoke and spice flavors.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker C:I think far more important than that, and it's a principle that is very important to me, is where your food comes from, where your meat comes from matters as much as how you smoke it.
Speaker C:So for me, I always try and get one of the heritage breeds like Duroc or Mangalitsa.
Speaker C:That are bred for flavor have a little bit more flavor than your standard commodity pork.
Speaker C:And that, I think, really does make a big difference in terms of the farnaisal.
Speaker B:Leanne's big on Duroc.
Speaker B:I know she is.
Speaker D:I am.
Speaker D:I've had mangalisa, too.
Speaker D:I've cooked it, and it didn't do well for me.
Speaker D:I prefer the Duroc.
Speaker C:Okay, fair enough.
Speaker C:Well, we're on the same page.
Speaker B:What you don't have is she's really nice.
Speaker B:A cologne for women called Durock Number five.
Speaker B:Anyway, when they're.
Speaker B:When they're actually cooking the ribs and the different styles, St.
Speaker B:Louis baby backs, country style ribs, that's a whole different ball game there.
Speaker B:That's another one that.
Speaker C:Well, that's really a pork chop.
Speaker C:You know, basically it's a funny shaped.
Speaker B:Pork chop, but my mother used to boil those things too.
Speaker B:My God.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, boy, that was tough.
Speaker C:The apple fell far from the tree, huh?
Speaker B:It did.
Speaker B:It rolled down the hill, went across the creek, and went up the other side.
Speaker B:I can put it that way, too.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker B:But could you tell them a little bit about the difference between St.
Speaker B:Louis baby back and that?
Speaker B:And is there anything they need to look out for when they're actually putting them on the grill or the smoker, however they choose to do it?
Speaker C:Yeah, sure.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:Well, the rib that I think most Americans prefer is the baby back, which is cut closest to the.
Speaker C:The backbone of the hog.
Speaker C:We have an expression, eating high alcohol, you know, which is the idea that the baby back, it's the most tender of the ribs.
Speaker C:It's the best marbled of the ribs.
Speaker C:It's the fastest cooking of the ribs.
Speaker C:So it really, you know, it really answers everything that a rib lover loves.
Speaker C:Then if you imagine, you know, that a cross section of a hog is like the face of a clock.
Speaker C: aby backs are sort of between: Speaker C:And then if you get more down to your two to four to five o'clock, those are your spare ribs.
Speaker C:Meatier, tougher, longer cooking baby backside can eat you indirect grill at a higher temperature or barbecue at a lower temperature.
Speaker C:Spare ribs.
Speaker C:So definitely you want to cook at a lower temperature.
Speaker C:True barbecue, true barbecue buffs love them because they will just have a.
Speaker C:They're loaded with labor.
Speaker C:And if you cut a section, the top section off that baby bag so that it looks flat and it's about the size and shape of a baby bag, you get what's called a St.
Speaker C:Louis cut rib.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:So it looks and cooks like a baby back, but it comes from a spare rib.
Speaker C:Maybe that's actually the best compromise, you know, because you're getting a Slav dip in the hand, but you're also getting easy eating bit of that.
Speaker C:And then finally, between about five and seven o'clock on that cross section, you have rib tips, darts, the cartilagenous, cartilaginous connector tissue between the two sides of the, the rib cage.
Speaker C:And those are popular like people eat them in Cincinnati.
Speaker C:They turn up at other barbecue places loaded with flavor.
Speaker C:They also turn up at Chinese restaurants as dim sum where they actually are boiled.
Speaker C:But they're quite delicious.
Speaker C:So that's something to pull out, you know, when you want to smell a rib that most people are not familiar with.
Speaker C:Finally, we mentioned country style rib and that's a funny shaped pork chop cut neck section at home.
Speaker C:So those you cook like a pork chop, that's a direct fill, not a low and slow smoke.
Speaker B:Yeah, I, I, I actually really like on occasion the country style ribs.
Speaker B:There's a lot of, there's a lot of meat there without the work of, you know, chewing them off the bone, that type of thing, which is fine.
Speaker B:But sometimes I think people, well, a lot of those too.
Speaker B:I live in an area where there's a lot of Russian people live here and Hispanic people and some German people.
Speaker B:And depending on their favorite dish of what they're creating, those, those can be quite, quite delicious, whether they're cooking them on what, some cabbage or sauerkraut or rice, what have you.
Speaker B:I've had them all different ways and I think they're quite good.
Speaker B:So we're going to take another break.
Speaker B:We're going to come back and wrap up the show with Steven Raichlen.
Speaker B:And Ms.
Speaker B:Whippen is going to share with us.
Speaker B:She doesn't know it yet, but a couple of ideas here, so please stay with us.
Speaker B:You're listening to Barbecue Nation.
Speaker F:Hey, everybody, it's jt.
Speaker F:You know, I talk about Painted Hills all the time and we always say beef the way nature intended.
Speaker F:But it's more than that because each bite of Painted Hills will make your taste buds explode.
Speaker F:Put a big bright smile on your face and whoever's at your dinner table will have a big bright smile on their face.
Speaker F:And you can thank me for that later.
Speaker F:Just go to paintedhillsbeef.com and find out more.
Speaker F:You won't regret it.
Speaker F:Hey, everybody, J.T.
Speaker B:Here.
Speaker F:I want to tell you about the Hammerstahl knives.
Speaker F:Hammerstahl combines German steel with beautiful and functioning Designs.
Speaker F:They're part of the Heritage Steel Group, which also does their pots and pans.
Speaker F:So go to heritagesteel us.
Speaker F:Check out the Hammer Stall knives.
Speaker F:If you're really into cooking, I think you're really, really going to like them.
Speaker B:Hey, everybody, it's jt.
Speaker B:And before we get on with the.
Speaker E: he four open positions in the: Speaker E:So we'd like to acknowledge those folks.
Speaker E:Danielle Bennett from Florida, Rick Brown from Portland, Oregon, My hometown.
Speaker E:Steve Grady from North Carolina, Andy Husbands from Andover, Mass.
Speaker E:David Close from Houston, Ed Morin from Kansas City, Philip McLard from Hot Springs, Arkansas.
Speaker E:Roy Perez from Lockhart, Texas.
Speaker E:Malcolm Reed, who's been on the show a few times, from Hernando, Mississippi.
Speaker E:And Van Sykes from Alabama.
Speaker E:Congratulations to those folks.
Speaker E:There were 83 nominated barbecue enthusiasts, and those 10 I just listed made the cut for the four final spots.
Speaker E:So good luck, everybody.
Speaker E: ll be announcing the class of: Speaker E:And the inductees will be recognized Nov.
Speaker E:2 during the 44th annual American Royal World Series of Barbecue in Kansas City, Kansas.
Speaker E:Congratulations and good luck.
Speaker E:Now let's go to our show with Steven Raichlen.
Speaker B:Great, great show.
Speaker B:It's always fun to have Steven on the show because he's always just a wealth of information there.
Speaker B:One of the things I wanted to talk to Stephen about today was not only doing vegetables, which we haven't really touched on too much in this show, but he's got a new book or a republication of a book, his Beer Can Chicken book.
Speaker B:And a lot of people really took hold of that and ran with it once.
Speaker B:You did that years ago.
Speaker B:And first of all, what made you bring it back out and tell us about how you developed that book?
Speaker C:Well, you know, first of all, I didn't invent Beer can chicken with.
Speaker C:A lot of people associate it with me because I discovered it at the Memphis in May Barbecue festival many, many years ago.
Speaker C:I demonstrated it on Good Morning America.
Speaker C:I wrote about it in the New York Times, and I really brought it to the American mainstream.
Speaker C:That book came out about 20 years ago, and it actually sold a half a million copies.
Speaker C:And my publisher came to me last year and said, you know, we think it's time to bring it out again and reintroduce beer can chicken to a new generation of grillers.
Speaker C:This is what we were talking about at the beginning of the show, this is a new generation of grillers.
Speaker C:Well, went back and forth and I thought, you know, yeah, that's a great idea because a beer can chicken has it all.
Speaker C:First of all, it's a terrific way to roast a whole chicken.
Speaker C:It looks great, it's very dramatic.
Speaker C:There's a touch of whimsy.
Speaker C:What I did is I used kind of beer can chicken as a metaphor and then traveled around the US and around the world.
Speaker C:So, uh, there's an Indian beer can chicken that is flavored with tandoori spices.
Speaker C:There is a Japanese beer can chicken made with Kirin beer that's flavored with Japanese spices.
Speaker C:Uh, and then I looked at the world of non alcoholic cans.
Speaker C:So there's a pineapple juice quail, uh, there is a, a cola chicken.
Speaker C:There's a root beer chicken.
Speaker C:And for all of these recipes, I used the, you know, when you make beer can chicken, you pour half of the liquid out of the can.
Speaker C:And I use that for marinades or for barbecue sauces.
Speaker C:So it's really kind of fun.
Speaker C:And then there's a chapter on non canned chicken off the can, which are other unusual ways to cook chicken.
Speaker C:Under a brick, under a stone spatchcock.
Speaker C:There's a chapter on unusual side dishes to go to beer can chicken and even unusual desserts.
Speaker C:So it was sort of Reichland unplugged was.
Speaker C:Now that book came out, like I said, about 20 years ago and it did great.
Speaker C:And then, you know, as happens with most books, it sort of fell off the radar.
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker C:So my publisher said, let's bring it out for new generation.
Speaker C:We shot.
Speaker C:The original book had no color photographs.
Speaker C:My book, how to Grill was the first book Workman published barbecue book that had color photographs in it, you know, from work and publishing.
Speaker C:So we put, did all new, all new photographs, which are really quite gorgeous.
Speaker C:I updated the recipes, you know, because so much has changed in the world of barbecue and the world of food in general in the United States that it needed a complete update.
Speaker C:And the book is hitting the stands this month and I'm pretty excited about it.
Speaker D:Oh, congrats.
Speaker D:It sounds great.
Speaker B:I need to share something with you.
Speaker B:My wife about a month ago went to a garage sale.
Speaker B:Not unusual.
Speaker B:We have a house full of stuff from garage sales and estate sales.
Speaker B:But she came back with this odd looking ceramic bowl.
Speaker B:And I couldn't figure out what it was.
Speaker B:It was a bowl with a big hollow stem on it and you could fill that up.
Speaker B:It was made to Cook beer can chicken in.
Speaker B:And I had never seen an actual bowl or cooking platter, if you will, whatever you want to call it.
Speaker B:I haven't come up with the proper name for it, but it was very interesting.
Speaker B:And then there was a trough around the outside of the bowl to catch the, the drippings and, and what have you.
Speaker B:So she was going to give it to somebody, but I kept it because I just thought it was such an interesting piece.
Speaker B:And I'll, I'll.
Speaker B:When Leanne comes up this summer, we'll try it on that and.
Speaker D:Yeah, I'd like to do that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Well, I'll tell you what I'll do.
Speaker C:I, I mean, many people have created beer can chicken roasters.
Speaker C:I created one that has a medical metal canister, stainless steel canister in the shape of a beer can that you can open.
Speaker C:So if you want to add wine to it to make a beer can, coco au vin, you know, wine, or a red eye chicken with, you can do that.
Speaker C:And you'll send me your addresses and I'll, I have roaster sent to you.
Speaker D:I love that.
Speaker B:I would love that too.
Speaker B:Real quick.
Speaker B:And we can pick this up in after hours because we only got about a minute and a half or so left here.
Speaker B:Steven, roasting vegetables again, this is stuff you see on the web a lot.
Speaker B:There's been.
Speaker B:You wrote a book about grilling and roasting vegetables.
Speaker B:There's a number of how to grow vegetables.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker B:Yeah, like that.
Speaker B:Like I said, we'll pick it up in after hours.
Speaker B:But what's the one thing that probably people should be aware of?
Speaker B:Is it the direct heat versus indirect heat when doing that?
Speaker B:Or if you want a blister or red pepper, for example, or is it with corn to kind of roll them back and forth across the grate so they get evenly cooked?
Speaker B:What, what's the number one thing that you can think of?
Speaker C:Well, for me, it all boils down to moisture content, right.
Speaker C:If you have a vegetable with a high moisture content, like peppers, mushrooms, corn, you direct grill over a hygiene cause you want to caramelize those plant sugars.
Speaker C:If on the other hand, you have a very starchy, dense vegetable like potato or rutabaga or head of cabbage, you want to indirect grill at a lower temperature because you want to cook it all the way through.
Speaker C:And by the way, if I may just mention my website, it's barbecuebible.com that's written out B A R D E C U E B I B L e dot com.
Speaker C:We've got a ton of recipes and information about grilling vegetables, about beer can chicken.
Speaker C:It's pretty much, you know, Ryken Barbecue 24 7.
Speaker C:And you can sign up for my free up and Smoke newsletter, which comes out twice a week.
Speaker C:Costs nothing, but it's.
Speaker C:I like to think it.
Speaker C:It's filled with invaluable tips.
Speaker B:It is, because I get it every week and I actually, we reposted on Facebook and stuff.
Speaker B:I don't think I ever asked you permission for that, but we just did it, so I didn't think you'd mind.
Speaker C:I'm delighted to have you do it.
Speaker C:And my Facebook and Instagram are.
Speaker C:That's Stephen Reichland, so there you go.
Speaker B:All right, we got to get out of here.
Speaker B:Steven Reichland, thank you very much.
Speaker B:But he's sticking around for after hours.
Speaker B:And, Leanne, thank you, as always.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And we'll be back next week with another edition of Barbecue Nation.
Speaker B:Remember our motto, turn it, don't burn it, and go out there, cook something good and have fun.
Speaker B:Take care, everybody.
Speaker A:Barbecue Nation is produced by JTSB LLC Productions in association with Salem Media Group.
Speaker A:All rights reserved.
